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MOD NOTE: This beware started off just directed at Bae Bunny, but after Bae Bunny commented their piece in the replies, with additional proof that was left out, it was updated to include the original poster, Shizimiru Okame/Comico. I will include bae Bunny's comment and proof UNDER the original post. Originally posted on May. 2nd, 2013 by Shizimiru Okame Mod Note 2: OPs FA links with their references are defunct. TLDR: Bae bunny of fa made mistakes on a 100 dollar commission for 5 icons, 20 a piece. Makes many mistakes after agreeing to edits, then refuses the edits after a while demanding 75 usd, or they will dispute the transaction. WHO: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/baebunny WHERE: Furaffinity.net WHAT: 5 icons for 100.00 usd, Made mistakes and refuses to continue editing unless they receive an addtional 75.00usd WHEN: A few months ago to current day. commission dissussions: (they got the 5 customs) Artist agrees to make edits: Bae claims before argument that they are raising prices here on out: Bae claims to dispute the payment unless paied: My responce after being told I would have to pay more or be disputed: My self expaining some edits that are needed to be done: My refernaces: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10133553 (WARNING MAY BE NSFW) http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10241628 http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10241557 as you can see these references are very detailed so the mistakes are on the Bae's not mine. One of the icons where the frames are botched: in this icon you see the horn is messed up, and they refused to fix this icon as well as the other 3. this is the only icon done correctly but edits still needed to be made at first, http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10491255/ you can see here that he requires the reffernaces so he can evuate his prices: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8786918/ Explain: He's done this work a lot they should have known better then to take this commission for that price. Bae knew the difficulty of this project and still took it on, why should I have to pay 75.00 usd for something they messed up? This sounds kinda fishy and scam like to get more money out me. Take for example you have a mechanic fix your car, and they mess up, would you pay them more to fix it? this could have been avoided if the user had a tos stating that after a certain amount of edits the commissioner would then pay edit fee's, this user does not have a TOS that I can find. There are more notes that aren't shown due to the fact it's the same argument over and over, I paid you for this, why won't you finish your job? Icons they are very personable to the people getting them, and at 20 apiece you expect them to be very well done. after being on a waiting list for months, they are contacted a few weeks ago and they paid for the work and now this... The artist has not replied in about 24 hours, but has read the notes sent by the user. What do? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bae Bunny's reply, posted on May. 12th, 2013 (This was posted on an account linked to the now defunct Google Plus.) Aaaaaaaand in this corner, BAE BUNNY! :V This is weird on my part because I never thought that I was going to be involved here! Had to create a brand new account even. If this isn't how you deal with an issue, sorry! Its my first time ; o ; Be gentle~ Thanks guys for bringing this to my attention and to anyone that has been on my side. I do think its important to hear both sides of the story, so here I am! Words from the horse's mouth :U So here's the scoop: STEP 1: "I -totally- should have handled myself better" I was probably out of line asking for $75 to make edits, and I shouldn't have been so strict, but take a look at my list of notes from her: This isn't just garble, this is a back and forth of edits upon edits upon edits with her. I really couldn't take it anymore! With the way things were going I could have animated for her indefinitely if she wanted. It was apparent after a while that nothing was going to be perfect and I wasn't going to be able to move on, so I abruptly quit. For the issue on not having a TOS, I actually haven't had a negative issue like this up until now! Everyone I've made stuff for was happy as far as I knew, so I never needed one :I This felt like an issue going, "No TOS? Mmm...exploit!" Since after all of this I've been constructing one, but as a result, icons are going to be more related to "Time Invested" rather than per icon, which brings me to... STEP 2: "Bae Gives into the Demands!" I didn't want to spend unpaid time to continue to animate, but I was threatened on getting an AB Page otherwise, as her note shows above. So before I went to bed, I got this note: So "fix the icons and I won't post an AB page," eh? What else could I do! I caved in and did the edits for free that following morning at 11AM, as shown here: I include a highlight of the things that needed to be edited so it was apparent I knew what had to be fixed. She responds later saying this: Then posts them to her account as shown here: So with me being finished animating and her posting the icons, I would have assumed I met my end of the bargain and wouldn't get the AB page! :V ... STEP 3: "I got a bad feeling about this~" I know she says she was waiting for these icons for months, but she only contacted me on April 16th asking if she could pay now for the icons, even though her spot wasn't up on my que yet. I never charge ahead of time, but she was being persistent: She kept wanting me to give a discount for a bundle deal and wasn't getting the hint, so I sent this note: I want to point out that I warned her I work on customs and charge for the time spent, rather than a flat rate per icon. The more complicated/longer they take to animated, I charge more, ranging from $15 - $30. So when someone sends me $20 for each icon and then has a laundry list of big icons as shown in her notes above...I -really- felt like I was getting ripped off . ~ . So I responded with some suggestions on changes, and I get this back: Just pointing out that she says "do what ya think is right here, i trust you x3" and she was going to pay me $10+ for the more complicated one. If I had known in the end how difficult she was to work with, I wouldn't have taken her request. In the end, she got her finished icons with the edits for free! TL;DR ~In a conclusion~ 1. I shouldn't have freaked out 2. I've created a TOS for the future and raised the prices of my icons to accommodate for time spent on each icon rather than a flat rate 3. I made the edits for her and she said "thanks" and posted them to FA 4. I was threatened, gave into demands, and was STILL posted on Artist Beware anyway! 5. Comico was Suspended from FurAffinity for harrasment, so I feel like she is doing this because she's still mad 6. Issue was resolved May 2nd @ 2:34PM Thanks for reading my side anyway u 3 u ~ Make your own opinions for yourself; this is just how I saw things from my perspective. Just let me know if you need to know anything else! ~Bae

Original: https://artists-beware.livejournal.com/646177.html WHO: Otterman89, Bradley WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/otterman89/ WHAT: Digital art, comic. WHEN: November 2nd 2012 - ongoing PROOF & EXPLAIN: In the LJ cut! I had hoped not to have to post here... but here we go! Otterman89 posted a thread on FAF looking for an artist to do a comic series for him. It appears that out of the people that posted their prices, mine were cheapest so I got a note from him on the mainsite even though I asked him to email. (I prefer email because Gmail keeps it threaded and I can open the entire convo at once.) His note, asking a few questions about what I will do, confirming price and asking if he can do it in spurts of a few pages at a time (while still getting the lower rate) since he doesn't like to spend a lot of money at once. ... At 20 pages, the project would be $200. My return note, answering said questions and showing him my comic process. He then sent me his already scripted out (very clearly and easy to follow) comic. It was indeed 20 pages and didn't have any content that was too weird for me. I give him a little more information and confirm that he wants me to do it. He chooses for a Saturday release when he gets pages. This wouldn't be EVERY Saturday I understood, but only when he gave me the go-ahead for more pages. I asked how many pages to do and he said a cover page and the first two pages. I asked again for his email address and said I would send the sketches of all three pages by Friday (Nov 9th) for his approval. He never did send me his email address, so on Nov 8th I send him a note containing a link to the sketches and ask a couple of questions as to the title of the comic and if he wants handwritten text or computer text. He appears happy so far, so I go ahead. We have a little back and forth about when he should post the comics on his gallery. I like to space it a little so that it can possibly increase the amount of people viewing it. Here I should have waited until he actually paid me before finishing the pages, but since I wanted to make good on my promised release date, I went ahead with them. I email him on the agreed date to let him know that the pages are ready and I will send them once I am paid. I still haven't heard from him by the next day so I send him a note with links to the finished pages. Shortly after I get a note saying that he can't pay me for a week because suddenly this other artist he wanted a commission from had an auction going and he decided to bid on it. Nevermind that the work he wanted from me was ready to go. In the interest of keeping peace, I just thanked him for letting me know and said I will be looking forward to next weekend. I did not post the finished pages or give him the pages. He only got to see low res, watermarked copies. Two hours later he mentions a change that he hadn't during the sketch stage. That the characters are actually supposed to be the same height. It hadn't occured to me to ask this, but I had gone through his gallery looking at other drawings of these two and they seemed to be of different heights so that is what I did. It was my mistake though. We agreed to change it for later pages, as in these ones it was only thee panels that showed the difference and not such a big deal. Two days later he changes his mind and asks me to fix it. I get it done. (not pictured in the screen shot is the note from me on Nov14 saying okay and his on the same day saying thanks.) I sent him a money request on the 17th. I didn't hear from him so on the 18th I sent a reminder note and on the 19th I resent a money request using the 'invoice' tab. On the 20th he responds and says he hasn't seen it. reminder, invoice screenie He pays the invoice on the 20th and apologises for the wait. Also says that he will be looking forward to this weekends pages. Emailed the sketches two days later as he indicated on the 20th he wanted more pages for the 24th. I don't seem to have his approval of the sketches saved, but I know he did. I didn't hear from him that weekend, so on the 26th I sent him a note with links to the low res watermarked files to prove they were ready. And an invoice which I dated for the 14th just in case. My mistake was probably saying "They are ready for you whenever you are ready to pay," as this is when the real trouble for me starts. As I was completely ignored until 4 days later when he sent me this note about how the game expansion he wants is on sale so he wants to buy it while he still can. I am miffed at this point, but send back an understanding note saying that my sister is into that game so I understand that he wants it and to keep me in the loop about what he is up to. He sends a note saying "Kk :)" then the next day tries to placate me (I guess) with this note. So the weekend of the 8th goes by and I get nothing from him. No update notes or payment or anything. In the time from when I sent him the invoice on the 26th up until the due date on the 14th, I sent him two reminders.. I am not sure of the days since I don't know if PayPal keeps a record of that. I was very annoyed at this point, so I sent him a note about it. He tries to tell me that he wasn't ignoring me (though he was) and gives me a tale about how he is addicted to art and everyone offers such great deals at this time of the year that he can't help himself. Also about how he should be getting more hours at work but isn't. Excuses... but then says twice that his goal is to pay everyone by Jan 1st 2013. ... Okay I will not get mad at him, because I would like to see this money. I reply and leave it at that. [Archiving Mod Note: Please note that we would not permit information such as this currently.] While all this time of him not paying me is going on, I see him on the FA forums making threads about getting more commissions so it is ticking me off that he has me and apparently a bunch of other artists to pay still and is STILL commissioning more art. Wanting a ref pic... Wanting some kind of fanart... Wanting a WoW pic... Wanting a Lion King pic... Wanting a 2ft plushie made... I restrained myself from posting in any of those threads. Keeping myself professional and not calling him out. On the 17th I got another note with another excuse as to why he couldn't pay me. This time I ignored him because I couldn't trust myself to stay polite. I decided to just wait and see if he would pay me by Jan 1st as his goal stated. Meanwhile, I check his FA page a little and see he is uploading an awful lot of art, although if any are gifts/freebies, I don't know. Forty-eight pictures between the day he commissioned me and today (Jan 2nd). None of them being the pages from me that he did pay for. However, one is a LK picture (he posted looking for one on Dec15th and this was uploaded Dec22nd) which makes me wonder why he could pay that artist who was commissioned after me but not me. Some of the other pictures may have been those other artists from December that he owed, but I have no way of knowing. So on Jan 2nd I sent him another note asking how the payment was coming along and he now promises by this weekend. I really shouldn't have let it drag out this long (although it is not nearly as long as most of the stories here), but I was afraid that if I rocked the boat, I wouldn't see anything at all... but that is what I am seeing now. I sure hope I see that money on the weekend. In either case, I decided several weeks ago that I will not be working with him further on this project but wanted to wait until he paid for the current batch of pages before telling him. I also wanted to hold off on the A_B post until he at least paid me, but I am afraid I won't so I chose to go forward with this post. Beware of Otterman89. Do not do anything (he typically only asks for two types of drawings... tongues tied together or private parts locked together) until he pays you... which I mean, that should go without saying already. Live and learn I suppose. ______ Update- While waiting for this entry to get approved the following has happened... I waited over the weekend and heard nothing from him. In the afternoon on Monday the 7th I sent him a note telling him that I can not work on his project any longer. This is what I already intended to tell him, even if he had paid me. He sends a note back one minute later saying that he was just about to send the money. Personally, I don't believe him, but I am firm about not working with him any longer... though I would still like to get the money. caps of that exchange After that, he asked for my PP address again and FINALLY paid me. So, I guess this is resolved. Now I just have to convince him that I won't do any more pages... at least that I won't do anything until the batch is paid for in advance. No sketches or anything.

Sep. 22nd, 2011 at 10:54 PM scenceable I guess this post is mostly a warning against dealing with this person. However, if there's anything you can suggest that I can do at this point, I'd love to hear it! ? Who Kate Sjoberg, AmandaKathryn (Deviantart and ebay), RedWyvrenStudio (Etsy) Where Ongoing through ebay, etsy, and deviantart What Well she sells unicorn sculptures that run $100+, but my issue is regarding other parts of the transaction. I'm just going to copy paste what I wrote in my own journal. I've never posted in this community before so I apologize if I leave out any information. I'm not really sure what to do with this. The seller here is an artist who I've been a fan of for ages. (Kate Sjoberg, AmandaKathryn, RedWyvrenStudio) I bought a fairy from her in 2006, and then bought a few unicorns, and commissioned a pegasus at the end of 2008. With the commission, I found her communication a bit shaky, like she wouldn't respond to messages every time and that type of thing. My first issue was a mermaid I bought from her in early 2009, she started the bidding low and the auction ended low. She charged me $35 for shipping, and it ended up only costing $12. I messaged her 4 times over a few weeks to get the money back to no response, and after weeks (I guess after that 4th message) finally I go to paypal and see she has refunded me $14. No paypal note, no reply to my messages, no apology. And the difference in shipping was a decent chunk more than $14, but at least I got some back. So I didn't press the issue, and left positive feedback anyway. Now ship overcharges piss me off in general so after that I didn't buy from her for almost 2 years. (I should add, money and falling out of collecting contributed to this as well) Then in Novemeber 2010 I bought two large unicorns, one was $135 and one was $125. The description on all her auctions says the items come with a COA (certificate of authenticity) and they didn't. Also, one of the unicorn's bases was broken. I contacted her through etsy about the break and the COAs. At first she had great contact. And then... nothing. However, against my better judgement, I bought a unicorn in February 2011 from her, which was sold with a "new version" of her unicorn tutorial. Here's our entire conversation through etsy. So, I would like to point out here a few things. First of all, I never got a refund or any sort of money back due to the broken item. She never looked into the claim or got back to me on that (look at the dates on the messages) and I ended up fixing the base at cost to me. The pegs are really expensive and hard to find and I used my own. I would also like to point out that she doesn't apologize at all about an item arriving broken. A few others things... she didn't tell me beforehand that the COAs would be sent separately- I had to ask. The description says they come with COAs. Also, again, she never mentions before I pay that the tutorial would be shipped separately or that it would take time to complete. I knew that info through DeviantArt comments only. Also regarding her last message to me- the COAs were NOT in the box with Dream. I never got them. After messaging her on etsy and getting no response I gave up. I hate chasing people and figured, whatever, let it go, just don't buy from her again. But it bothers me to this day every time I think about it. It's to a point where I want to sell them because I can't enjoy them properly due to these issues. The two unicorns I need COAs for I bought in November 2010. The unicorn that was supposed to come with a new version of the tutorial was purchased in February 2011. So recently, as in the end of August 2011, she posted on DA and I commented about something else and she responded. So I figured hey, she's around, I'm going to send her a note. Why not, might as well mend things if I can. Here are those. The following are messages through DeviantArt's note system So, I realize the tone in my first DA message was quite different from that last one. But that's it. Not only am I done with buying items from her, I am spreading this to others too. Again, I would like to point out that in the message I got from her in August, she did not apologize ONCE for a huge issue that is absolutely her fault. The thing is, they're PAPER. To appease me all she had to do was print two pieces of paper, sign them, slap the old tutorial on a disc, toss all 3 in an envelope and send them out! There is nothing hard about that. Ignoring messages and failing to do something so simple for your customers really just illustrates how little you care. And on a more personal note... I would also like to mention, because for those not familiar with the artist I think it's important- they're not cheap. I have 8 pieces by her that were $100-$200 each. (Sorry! I put this bit in for my LJ friends, I don't mean to mply that her work is overpriced or anything like that!)COAs and such might not seem like a big deal, but if I want to resell them at any point they're not worth much without the COA. As for the tutorial, she charges $13 for the old version and the price for the unicorn I got was started higher because it came with a tutorial. So I bought it largely because of the tutorial. So in many ways it's not that big a deal, not like never receiving an entire sculpture. However, in principal, I didn't receive what the description stated. In the end, I'm leaving this transaction feeling taken advantage of... it doesn't matter what business you're in, that's never something you want to do to your customers. ? If anyone has any advice on what to do, I'm all ears. At this point, I'm moving on and never dealing with this person again. It's really unfortunate that things have come to this because I'm honestly a big fan of her work.

oCe opened a big Beach Bonfire YCH in 2015 (See here: https://www.furaffinity.net/view/17220132/ and here: https://www.furaffinity.net/view/17219741/ and the actual auction for my spots here: https://www.furaffinity.net/view/17364640/) and I grabbed several spots in it for a friend and myself. The auctions for the spots in the big YCH stretched down to December, because she was auctioning them by groups. Payment was done on Sept 22nd, 2015. The first updates were journals on February 2016, though she did posted other journals taking commissions in the meantime, and would keep doing it until she more or less vanished from the face of the internet altogether around late 2017: One in the 15th: https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7381550/ And one on the 29th: https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7411940/ I sent a couple emails that went unanswered in July and September 2016: Then she sent an email to everyone in the YCH with the first WIP in October 2016: The WIP looked good, so I didn't try to contact her until January 2017, and again in March since my previous email had gone unanswered: Then she posted a journal on July hinting that we would receive some WIPs (https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/8307192/): And one in October 2017 explaining that stuff happened but we would finally get a WIP soon (https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/8456845/): I never received the WIP this I sent her an email in November 2017 asking about it, but never got any answer: Then in March 2018 and April 2018 I sent mails again, trying to get some news, with no answer at all again: At this time, I turned to the A_B Community and sent a Lost Contact notice (https://artists-beware.livejournal.com/998856.html) which caused a reaction and I received a mail from her not too long after. Though that reaction would prove to be short-lived as shown by the email conversation below which is mostly me talking with little answers and long delays again between each answer: Having ran out of patience, I've decided to make this beware. Obviously, it's way too late to dispute anything on Paypal, so I'm 300$ out of luck, and I have been given little in return for it. If this manages to reach oCe, while I'd love to see the finished product, as I still do love her art style, I've lost all confidence that it will ever get done and any trust I could have in her due to the utter lack of communication, despite her telling commissioners to contact her via email and that she would reply promptly. Thus why I'd like to get a full refund of the 300$, and get done with this

I originally contacted Furfancy for a fursuit as of Sept 14, 2019. They provided me the link to their website and we continued with conversation from screenshot1.jpg: We had discussed the details and around December I made the initial payment for my partial fursuit for $2000 and the start date to begin working on the suit around the end of 2020. After December, I started making payments via Paypal. Thankfully, I requested a written contract on Jan 2, 2020. The contract was created and signed. (Not provided since it contains personal information of both client and seller) Aside from the occassional late response, things went fairly smoothly as I continued making payments. It wasn't until September that I started seeing some big red flags. I'll also note that in the contract provided, there was a 1-4 day window for communication which I thought was fairly reasonable. Going forward on this beware, it was mostly the lack of communication that resulted in me wishing to end this contract. On September 18, 2020, I sent the following message on telegram: At this point, the lack of communication was already becoming an issue. This was something that I tried to contact her on so that we could continue working around this but kept getting worse as things went on. Throughout this process, other commissioners were having the same experience as me and were backing out. On top of the fact that she was so far behind deadline and also the lack of communication, I was (and still am) worried that she has no intention of really completing my fursuit. Despite no work being done on the suit and breaking her own terms on her contract, she never offered me a full refund, and when I requested one eventually, she said that she could not provide a full refund. My initial $400 payment was non-refundable. If any work was done on the project or parts were already purchased, I may have understood. However, at this point, we are already a year after the initial request to commission a fursuit. There was no work completed and still 20 people in the queue before me which meant I would need to wait approximately another two years before she could even start working on my fursuit. At this time, I had also joined her group chat which I will not provide screenshots of since Victoria largely provides updates via voice messages. Every update that was provided has been about personal problems and why she needs to extend her deadlines for all of her clients. These were the only updates that were provided for approximately a year. I can sympethize with these problems. However, I paid $2000 for a commission. This means that I'm working with a company to provide me with a product. I understand that roadblocks occur, but at no point of the process did Victoria hold any accountability or responsibililty. This screenshot is from September 22, 2020. Please keep that in mind while you look at the next screenshot from October 2, 2020. This last screenshot I found out that she had apparently purchased my furs apparently months ago and didn't bother to inform me. "If a charge back is made, I'm going to assume you no longer want the slot. If you are backing out 35% is non refundable." If the communication up to this point was a red flag, then threatening me for 35% of what I paid so that I can guarantee I don't get screwed through this process should be just straight up illegal. At this point, I managed to call her. Only after a full year, did she share her trello board with me. I contacted her asking her to update her contract for a deadline and a full refund if she did not complete the fursuit by August 1, 2021. After signing the new contract, we stopped communicating for a while. Then we pick back up in February. At this point, this brings us up to where we are currently in the discussion and I'm mentally checked out of this whole process. I just want my full refund so I can move on with my life. I was really looking forward to commissioning my first fursuit and now I'm not sure if I want one anymore. Victoria has completely ruined the idea of fursuiting for me at this point.

Disclaimer: the screenshots I have are the best I can get from discord chats where I talked with others about the commission months ago. Commissioner blocked me (see attachment 1) immediately after my saying I wasn't content with my commission compared to others they've done, thus I cannot get any other screenshots than those I have here. -- Proper: Our first contact about the commission was right after they posted they were open for commissions and (of I remember right) in need of help financially. I had talked with them previously, as they made a nice little $10 pinup of my lizard boy (Attachment 2), and I even made them a little art as thanks in return. They seemed nice, so why not help them out and see what they can do for a full piece? April 7th, I paid the $140 (attachment 3) for a full shaded piece with a background and showed them all my references for my Y/veltal and U/mbreon characters performing missionary position and its supposed to be romantic. I will note that shaded characters is worth more than background (attachment 4), and the background ended up being the subject in the end piece. After the start of our commission, they seemed to go pretty fast! They got me the first sketch within 3 days, which came in the form of just a fully lined "background". (attachment 5) Took me off-guard because that never happens, getting the background (lined) before even seeing a sketch of any sort, especially the subjects. Thought maybe the subjects would go on the couch or floor or something (since I didn't specify where, which was in retrospect may have been my first mistake, and they wouldn't tell me what they were about to do). I figured I would wait it out and see what they do. Waited quite a while, a month went by, another month...I was beginning to wonder, so I asked if there was any progress. Each time I asked, they simply answered "no progress". Meanwhile on Twitter I had noticed them saying they were too depressed to work or some such thing, then it turned to them being in art school all of a sudden. And whenever they were in the mood, they'd spit out about 5 pinup commissions at a given time. By the time I even got an update (which I will touch on in a moment), there had to have been about 30 to 40 commissions finished by them. That is not an exaggeration. I confronted them about it and after a few times of trying, they did indeed confirm that they took many MANY commissions at once, and it's been piling up ever since. And yet they are still asking for commissions and taking over a year to finish what I assume to be most of them. Moving on, the first update I got since the lined background was on February 11th, 2020 (attachment 6) I voiced my concern that the subjects weren't in the foreground and were instead in the background (attachment 7) while also trying to be nice because they were supposedly my friend, and the fact they'd been going through a lot (allegedly). Their only response was "this is what it looks like zoomed in" (attachment 8 ) which is a big yikes because, not only was it low res if you did zoom in, but it's also the fact it's not the focus, is a big no-no. I voiced my concerns again, and she left me on read. February 13th, another update. They only showed that they had colored and shaded the "background" which I thought looked pretty dang good, all things considered. (attachment 9) But no sign of whether Chio decided to move the characters anywhere else. Figured I would wait and see. Fast forward to APRIL 15TH with no prior WIPs, the characters were lined and flat colored already. I was so done and tired at this point and just wanted it done that I just couldn't bear to say anything. Other than just shade them, because obviously there was nothing I could do at this point. They had already got it set in stone without my permission. (attachment 10) Their reaction to "shading" the characters? (like I had bloody paid for) They darken the room. (attachment 11) So I figure, well, if you're going to do that, maybe can shade it nice with some glow effects from the U/mbreon that bounce off the Y/veltal and the walls and all? No. All that happens is that they add a glow around the markings. (attachment 12) Nothing spectacular. I paid full price for this. And the BACKGROUND is the FOREGROUND, and the characters aren't even shaded. Full piece: (attachment 13) Friend asking if full piece is a wip: (attachment 14) Proof of talking with my friends about this even early on when I found out it was in the background: (attachment 15) Other examples of art released at the same time that is better: (attachment 16) I'm sorry, but that is a failure to do what you have to do. Failure to communicate and make sure. Failure to get things done. Failure on the level of taking on way too many commissions and getting none done for an eternity. And then screwing up a full piece, which should be considered having /more/ care and effort put into it than your average pinup. Tl;dr -Takes too many commissions, and thus takes over a year to do your art -Not good at communication on commissions to make sure its what the commissioner wants -Overly sensitive if you say anything negative at all There were no WIPs before this.

My beware is for the artist known as Superninfendo / Fen. As a friend, I allowed our friendship to be used against me. I'd tell her time and time again to take her time with my commissions; and that they were not top priority. Most of our conversation for updates and such happened in a discord server I am no longer apart of; so those conversations are lost to the void. What I do have/can provide are screenshots of certain commissions I never got the finished products of. In the screenshots I will be providing; I will show evidence of me commissioning Fen, paying Fen; and then getting a few responses [if I was lucky enough] or no response for days/weeks/months. I was naïve and thought our friendship meant that I wouldn't be ghosted/scammed, but I was very wrong with that assumption. All in all, I was scammed out of $324.41. In the screenshots provided I will show the back and forth I've had with the artist over the coarse of the year; where some commissions had been done; but a majority were paid for and then ghosted/ignored. Even when requesting a refund, I was promptly ignored and overlooked. Even now in present time; they claim they've refunded all commissions owed; but I have yet to see my refund. Instead, I was swiftly blocked by their art management account run by SuperNinfendo and Corpsekiit. At the very end I show 2 instances of contact for a refund; and the final one being only just a day or so ago; where I was promptly blocked after requesting either the art owed to me or a refund. Original Agreement in chronological order: Several Art pieces coursing over a year - YCH of my sona holding money - Animal Crossing Sign Edit + Tip - 4 Twitch Emotes - Fullbody Commission w/ BG [made in 3 payments] - 2 Twitch Emotes - Pride Art Piece - Sona w/ Scarf - Outfit Change for PNGTuber - Leggy Keychain - Poster for Mic_Feedback's 30th birthday big stream celebration Proofs of payment: Relevant Correspondence:

On or around 16 March, 2018, I purchased a YCH for 20$ from the artist. I can't give an exact date as they seemed to have deleted everything relevant from their scraps and gallery (which I will get into later.) I sent them a not on the 16 March explaining that I don't have a ref sheet, just other commissions I've gotten and screenshots from Second Life and asked if that was okay, to which they replied with yes: I don't have a flat out notice of payment being sent either in note form or a paypal screenshot as I was using my partner at the time's paypal as I didn't have my own then, and we've since broken up, but I do have proof of them starting the art after I paid them, which they sent a WIP on 21 March (which now leads to an empty stash site) and asked about some colours: We talked a couple of times between them, mainly about when I was expecting my ref sheet to be done, which never did. A couple of weeks later on 29 March, I sent them a note asking about the art, as the WIP they had sent me appeared to be nearly done, they replied, and I conceded that maybe I was being a little impatient and decided I'd just let them work. I know, I can be a little impatient at times: A month later, on 29 April, I sent them another note asking for an update, to which I got no reply again: Then, between 13 June and 15 June we had a brief conversation about my ref sheet, which at that point I was still waiting on: On 20 July, I sent them a note asking for an update, as it had been a month and a half since the last update: To which I got a reply 10 days later on 30 July saying that it was nearly done: I didn't receive any art, and didn't note them again until 7 October, asking for an update: And got a reply 2 days later on 9 October, saying that were (presumably) out of town and would send it to me after 20 October, to which I agreed: I didn't hear from them for a while after that, so I messaged them on 29 October asking and gently reminding them that it's been seven months since I paid them: And got no reply. This is when they first went dark. I paid attention to their page for a bit and decided to note them again on 30 January, 2019, to which I got no reply: It was sometime around this time that I noticed his shout page had many shouts along the lines of "Where's my art?" and "Are you going to finish my art?" I didn't think to screenshot these, and they've since been deleted, which I'll address later. More than a year passed before I noticed in my submissions list that they started uploading art again, so I decided to note them on 25 June, 2020: And between the 26 June and 29 June we talked and they offered to either finish the old artwork, or to do a new one for me: They seemed partial to drawing new art, and to be honest with you I was really liking the sketch that they had sent me the first time, but at this point I just wanted to be done dealing with this artist. Full disclosure my replies at this time point were a couple days between, as that's when the pandemic in my area REALLY started to hit and everything was hectic, regardless, we agreed on a pose that I sent them (censored link) I sent them references, which they asked for (the artist I planned to do my ref sheet didn't pan out) and that was that: And at that point they went dark again. I noticed on their page that they had cleared out their shouts and seemed to be trying to start anew, so I was patient, until they started ignoring my notes. HOwever, I could see that they were actively favouriting art on FA and that they would occasionaly upload the occasional piece now and then, but didn't even open my notes, either of them that I sent: I left them a shout on 30 October, letting them know of my frustrations and asking them to at least read my notes: However that fell of deaf ears, as to this day, my notes are still unread, despite the fact that they even favourited something earlier this day before I typed this: (Obviously, BlueberryDragon is not affiliated with this artist, this screenshot is only provided as proof that the artist is still active, despite ignoring my notes) It seems like I'm simply out the money that I paid for the YCH, which some people may say that making a big deal out of a $20 YCH may be overkill, but that's not what's on trial here. I feel this artist has been very unprofessional and I have been more than patient waiting for them, and made every attempt I could to make things right and to contact them, but being flat out ignored is just rude and unprofessional. Oh well, you live and you learn.

I decided to write this review of my experience with Furfancy costumes, after my paypal case has finally closed. I feel it's important to share my experience so other people might not end up in my situation, and I hope that Furfancy will learn from their mistakes and improve on their customer service and communication skills in the future. A little background information that goes before the situation that in the end led to a Paypal chargeback of 373$. I have previously commissioned Furfancy for 2 of her big cat expanding foam bases. These two bases were commissioned 10/10 2017 and 14/1 2018. Both bases were in perfect condition upon arrival and I was very happy with the quality and looks of these bases. However, I did have some communication issues with Furfancy during this time (lack of updates, slow to no responses) and it took about 1 month before the bases were shipped out. I have described this more in detail in the overview timeline I’m posting after this section. At the time I didn’t think too much about it but it did worry me a bit, but since I in the end did get my product and I was happy about it I wanted to commission them again when they offered more bases for sale through Twitter summer 2018, and this is where things went terribly wrong. Furfancy foam base issue timeline 10/10 2017 - Ordering 1 foam base 23/10 2017 - Asking for updates (no response) 2/11 2017 - Asking for updates (no response) 3/11 2017 - Gets answer from Furfancy 10/11 2017 - Contacts to confirm shipping 11/11 2017 - Shipping confirmed 23/11 2017 - Base arrives 14/1 2018 - Ordering second foam base 1/2 2018 - Asking if the base has been shipped 3/2 2018 - Get a picture of the base in a box 5/2 2018 - Base gets shipped 13/2 2018 - Base arrives 19/7 2018 - Ordering 2 foam bases 31/7 2018 - Contacting to ask if they have received payment. It gets confirmed its recieved. 6/9 2018 - Asking for update and ordering an extra additional base. Also pay more shipping for all 3 bases to be shipped together 19/11 2019 - Asking for update (no response) 20/11 2018 - Asking for update again (no response) 29/11 2018 - Asking for refund (no response) 3/12 2018 - Asking for refund again. Tries to work out a private payment plan with first payment in January. 5/1 2019 - Contact seller asking for status of refund (no response) 6/1 2019 - Contacting again because no response (still no response) 8/1 2019 - Doing a PayPal dispute and first here do I get an reaction 11/1 2019 - Pushes for a PayPal claim due to no response on the dispute 21/1 2019 - Paypal closes the case, ruling in my favour due to Furancy failing to respond or provide additional proof regarding the transaction. Now, I am terrible sorry this had to go this way, but I am very unhappy with how this business transaction has been treated. I have attached the entire conversation which took place on Telegram as proof of my statements. Sadly I have friends who had similar experience as me, although they either didn't get their items all together or they arrived damaged. While it's not my place to speak their case, their experiences combined and my own I felt I had to speak up about this issue. The only reason I pushed the Paypal case was because my 180 days buyer protection was running out. It was around 170 days past when I made the dispute and with failing communication or any sign of a refund I decided to go through with it while I still had a chance to get my money back. Furfancy has a super adorable style, I love their suits and I admire the craftsmanship. But as a professional I had expected more and better communication and customer service. I felt I was often left in the dark and felt forced to ask for any updates (both product wise and shipping wise) and that should be communicated better from Furfancy. This is not an attack on their person (I don’t know them) but it's a critique of their lacking professionalism as a business. Pictures of the conversation below. Please note the dates.

Here is the original agreement for a paw commission and a headshot commission. Proof: Part 2 of the Agreement: Also how you can see on the screenshot above the artist has received the payment, but here is proof of the transaction anyways: After everything was settled I checked out the artists queue to get some kind of idea how long I might have to wait on the commissions. And well I was very surprised that the artists list is really long... So I figured I give the artist a reasonable time period to work on them. So after two months of radio silence in the dms, I saw that the artist still took a lot of commissions, even thought their current list, which got even longer the last time I checked, wasn't even done yet. I thought I'm gonna message the artist again, cuz on their list they wrote that people can message them to get prioritized on their list. This went as follows: I received no response on the original message, even though the artist was tweeting and engaging the entire time on their social media accounts. After a week of no response I decided to message them again. Which is the second message on the screenshot above. When this message was ignored as well I set a deadline for the artist. Which is the third message you can see on the screenshot above. There was a shorter time period between the second and third message, because I already got a bit annoyed. Finally after another week I got an answer from the artist: First I was a bit sympathetic with them, because I get that mental stress can have a big impact on someones life and I explained why I was so persistent to them as well. But showing my sympathy was a mistake, because after the conversation above the artist started to make excuses for not working on commission more and more frequently on their public twitter account. Also communication with this artist stopped entirely in the dms. They never responded back. So I messaged them regarding a refund, after again almost 2 months of radio silence. I gave the artist more time than the deadline I set them originally. And I still haven't received an answer yet.

Christmas was coming around and due to financial troubles, Chesta wanted to take emergency commissions to earn a bit of cash to spend on her three children. Proof of commission: https://sta.sh/024qbp1cjo2s Proof of purchase: https://sta.sh/011ldghfgpgk https://sta.sh/01wplj8ap2b3 She did have a lot on her plate, so I didn't worry about it. However, she has a Trello and didn’t update it often, so if anything, I was a bit nervous that she forgot about me. But a simple reminder should do. I noted her in April 2018 (forgot the original day, sorry) and asked if I could get my name on the Trello and was giving her a gentle poke in that direction. Sadly, no reply. I tried again, copy paste the original note on June 2018. Still no reply. Getting a little nervous, I wrote out another note on July 12th 2018, asking about my commission and expressing my understanding of the hardships she’s facing. However, I did mention, since it has been 6 months since the original commission was paid for, I was debating to get a refund. I was practically begging for her to reply to my notes. She did...telling me that I wasn’t forgotten and she doesn’t update her Trello enough to be reliable. Proof of unopened notes: https://sta.sh/0rx20svjd58 Proof of reply: https://sta.sh/0cqypc2a1f6 It wasn’t until November 2018 where I was knuckling down on this. I want my art and she’s not delivering. Not even WIPs or personal updates to me. Her situation is getting worse and she’s constantly taking on more and more work. I gave her another note, trying to get her to be honest with me. I wanted to help her. I was trying to be good and understanding because of my own experiences. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt. Proof of conversation: https://sta.sh/0urchox90qe (1) https://sta.sh/0x1byin29n2 (2) 5 days after this conversation (11/13), she wrote a PSA about explaining her actions (please note the comments are disabled). Sadly, she only refunded a handful of people (questionable) because she “is already working on the other commissions”. I was not refunded, because she claimed that she was working on my commission...but still no WIPs to defend herself. [Cut by mods. The journal is really personal. It should be noted that very personal information is being shared to clients who have been waiting for commissions.] The end of November, she gave out her email to everyone because she disabled her notes since they got too overwhelming. Proof of journal: https://sta.sh/0d2xvgeg56f I emailed her, laying down the line because I was losing my patience. More or less, I said, “Art or refund.” She pleaded with me to wait a week because she would finish my commission within that time frame. Allowing her one last chance, I agreed. It was November 30th 2018. The completed time would be December 7th 2018. Proof of email: https://sta.sh/013d1a9hxz8s (1) https://sta.sh/01954getkwvv (2) https://sta.sh/01yutosn7v2e (3) It’s been one month since that email. It’s now the New Year and I emailed her one last time, demanding the art or I will inform Paypal of fraud. She is telling me that she has it...but must wait until she gets home. Not since she got her internet back up (which was apparently on the 7th of January), she’s been radio silent on my commission. Yesterday, she posted only one commission; a more recent commission that she took on a month or so ago. I’ve had enough of this waiting game and pulled out the big guns. I filed a dispute with my bank on January, 9th 2019. Hopefully, I’ll get good news. Proof of email: https://sta.sh/02fzg9vaz8ds (1) https://sta.sh/0100d5wwgzxl (2) Proof of bank dispute message: https://sta.sh/01foihsglonb ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It’s been a month since I’ve heard back from the bank, still left in the dark. So far, nothing. Chesta finally got some motivation to do some commission work and is actually posting again. She then did note me, asking for “certain” details on my OCs Proof of notes (NSFW!!): https://sta.sh/0cr9d1o5n36 However, despite this, I’m still posting this Artist Beware. If I FINALLY obtain the commission, I will update this Beware and say, “It is finished” and call it resolved. Edit update by Celestina: Chesta's response. https://sta.sh/0e408suwx31 Edit 2 update by Celestina: My bank got back to me two days ago, unable to help without "contacting the merchant". After today's journal, I know she will not take kindly to any pressuring for either commissions or money. She did make a new journal today...but more or less, it's another copy/paste job of pity, saying far more personal stuff and how she's sorry that she's slow and disappeared and "should be coming back soon." https://sta.sh/01icefwqiixy

As a note, in the end I am getting the item she made. However the entire ordeal of two and half / three years of stress regarding this commission really has pushed me to write this, especially since she's looking to expand her client base. I absolutely hate writing negative reviews about people, but I honestly am under the impression if you're operating as a business (taking money for goods/services), you need to also provide good follow-through, reputation, and customer service. WHEN she did reply, I will give that she was always very polite in dealing with me. I had planned on writing this for a very long time, and then debated it when it appeared I may be getting my item. I lucked out in getting my item. I'm not sure why, but I am grateful for that. Artist: Aurasoul http://www.furaffinity.net/user/aurasoul/ (active) http://aurasoul.deviantart.com/ (she got herself banned) My Issues My fiance ordered a plush in Fall of 2008 for a Christmas gift for the sum of $90. Basically we were strung along, yelled at, ignored for months. When concerns of whether or not she had the time to complete or would like to refund us partial (minus the parts already used), we were ignored. Basically every note was ignored for months at a time which lead us to be very concerned about whether or not this was going to be completed or not. The screenshots below also include a few conversations with Ratchet, her boyfriend/husband. Since he had been helpful in getting a refund with another person on AB, it seemed like a good idea to contact him if he was more likely to respond. As a note, Ty and I have no problems being patient. As we told both Aurasoul and Ratchet countless times, but we do request communication every half a year or so. (We rarely got that). Again. We got our item in the long run, but I would strongly encourage people who want to commission this particular artist to never pay full up front -- and be aware that communication issues will be a very big factor. My complaints will be under the cut. This is a very long dated issue Disclaimer Please feel free to commission Aurasoul or have dealings with Ratchet at your own risk. I know I would not deal with the pair again. Communication issues with Aurasoul is one big problem, but the other is Ratchet's attitude in the end as well. I understand that Ratchet may had been put in the middle of this, and realize that it may be stressful him, but this is also a product of Aurasoul's inability to communicate with her commissioners. I was NOT the first to turn to Ratchet in hopes of getting help. I understand his point of view in "not being her keeper (something he said before), however if I did the same thing, I'd expect my boyfriend/husband to give me a sharp poke to get my butt moving if I were slacking on these issues. Also, there may be some notes I've lost in the course of 2-3 years. I tried to be as thorough as possible. I cleaned out my FA box due to the FA hack leak about a year ago and I think I've mistakenly deleted somethings I had intended to keep. I tried to keep every single response from both my side and their's. --------------- NOTE: For the first YEAR of this ordeal, I was not involved. The notes I have are after I got involved when I felt that Ty was getting scammed and was out nearly $100. That right there pissed me off to no small degree. In fall of 2009 is when I got involved in this on behalf of Ty. In summer of 2011 we saw the an upload of the final item completed (and item was given to someone in EF con to deliver to us in the states. ) ----------------------------- In late October / early November of 2008 my fiance commissioned Aurasoul for a Christmas gift for me. He did pay the full amount up front. He was told at the time that the item would be completed by Christmas of 2008. When the time come and gone, Ty had spoke with her in regards to what was going on when January rolled around, he was told that she had school going on and that delayed her -- as well as still gathering materials for the item. Being the patient type, Ty sat on it. He sat on it more, checking in every 3-4 months for a progress report. Rarely did he get an answer. At this point, we had gotten little communication, no item, no progress report and Ty so far was out $90. Ty had faith in Aurasoul. Mine had started to wane when I was reading numerous complaints and witnessing problems ongoing in real time through Artist Beware and other channels, such as the banning of her DA account. Again, any limited time Ty got a response, it was an excuse. No confirmation of anything. No item. No progress. Communication was like pulling teeth. Due to she being in Germany, we assumed that maybe she was not as well versed with English as many of our other German friends.. So we often simplified the conversation so it would be better converted in translators if she happened to use those. ---- It was after the year mark had nearly rolled around in 2009 that I got involved. After seeing nothing other than Ty's money being taken, I decided it was time to get involved. I first and foremost contacted Aurasoul asking for her to reach out to Ty to get in touch with him. We did not try to reverse action Paypal at this time, because we honestly wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt despite negative reviews and give her a chance to complete the item. In the beginning she was very willing to respond. She had even claimed he had photos for us! It quickly declined from there, however. Some Screenshots: So after the one promise of seeing progress reports, she had dropped off the face of the planet again, despite her account being active favoriting and commenting on art / responding to people in general. All the while, I was watching my notes being a mix of being read and unread status in her account. It was clear my notes were being avoided. Again, as we stated in the notes, we did not mind being patient but do require communication and some effort to give us progress. If you say check back in X time, that's what we'll do and not a moment before. However if you blindly ignore us while clearly being active, it paints a very drastic picture. It is what prompted the following screenshot. --------------- Fast forward to the year 2010! It was at this point there were numerous negative posts about Aurasoul being posted up in various more spots and it was getting scary. Some were saying how she would outright destroy the item. A few claimed they got resolution through her boyfriend/husband, Ratchet ( http://www.furaffinity.net/user/ratchet ). I had high hopes with this option, because at this point we were worried we were getting strung along and the best option would be a refund since we never got progress photos. At first, Ratchet was helpful, and then he turned rude - my guess in frustration with many other people who had commissioned Aurasoul contacting him as well. I do not know this to be the case firmly, but I do know I was not the only one worried about a commission. I had very limited conversations with Ratchet. Color us shocked. Here was progress and Aurasoul didn't bother to even notify us. Not one bit. We were happy to see the progress shots, don't get us wrong. We had waited a very long time for this. Again this really speaks for her customer service / organization. She didn't notify us that we had WIPs to view. She didn't respond to our notes in a timely fashion. However, we were happy. This what we wanted. By this time we were really happy. Here was news that it was finished and ready to be shipped. We promptly supplied the shipping information and then waited. And waited some more. And contacted our friend who had not gotten the item and waited some more. Friend contacted me to see if anything was heard. We waited more. Eventually we just waited to hear back from Aurasoul. We hadn't. We saw she was being active so it prompted us to write more notes. Many of which went unanswered. I hate doing it, but I DID leave a shout on her page to get in touch with me (it was promptly deleted). We supplied mailing information (for the second or third time) on January 21st, 2011. I had waited in sending it again because I wanted to make sure my friend would still be willing to be a middle man in this situation. We waited some more! By this time I was concerned. Seeing how Ratchet had been helpful in the past in prompting Aura to respond, since it had been so many months, I decided to give him a shot again. I was taken aback by how just down right rude he was. Unfortunately in my clutter of notes I do not see my original first note to him regarding asking for progress on behalf of Aurasoul. I only have his reply after this one. So we're back to waiting again. No direct communication with AuraSoul through this whole ordeal. Frankly it angered me a good bit to have him snap when I see both of them active, commissioning art, and neglecting their own commissioners. This is hindsight I suppose. I was a little confused to see that Ratchet was saying the item wasn't completed at this time, but it was hinted/ready to be shipped by earlier comments/notes from Aurasoul. Somewhere down the road I thought to contact her again. After all, 3-4 months in between notes isn't too short of a time I'd hope. Especially since the last WIP was over half a year ago. Correction. About half a year ago when she said she was SHIPPING it. After that last one, I decided to wait a bit again. Like before, it was waiting and my friend waiting and nothing coming of it. Once again I started noticing her being very active on FA, but not taking the time to read/respond to anything. The next screenshot had information pertaining again to my contact's address. I've blurred it out for privacy's sake but the meat of what was said is there. Despite me having sent the address numerous times before, I was requested again to send it. Again no final photos of a finished product, but just the idea of getting it and getting this ordeal over was a blessing. The last few conversations were of me confirming with my contact about it not arriving, and bringing it to Aurasoul's attention. She said it was still there and had not had time to ship it. At this point we had not seen any photos of the final product. I was not contacted directly, and would have missed the uploads (as I had when she originally uploaded WIPs) if I weren't watching her on FA. Holy cow there it was completed.. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6346025 http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6346032 Creatively since EF Con was right around the corner, to save on shipping fiascos (as one unfortunate person in Artist Beware had dealt with) I asked if she was going and could drop it off to my contact directly. While Aurasoul wasn't going, she had a friend who was. It was agreed (and this can be seen on conversations/replies in the actual finished product) that it'd be dropped to my contact. TL;DR Version I finally am getting my product and it looks good from what I can see in the photos. My contact is bringing it to me when we meet up at a US con. While Aurasoul has been very polite in her responses to me, her responses in general are like pulling teeth. She is not timely or professional in this manner. I do not recommend anyone paying full price for anything up front. Ordeal has taken place over the course of Fall of 2008 to Summer of 2011 to get sorted. I'm probably missing things. I tried to keep this as short, but as thorough, as possible. (Yes I could have written more believe it or not!)

Jun. 12th, 2012 at 4:37 AM pyeklet WHO: Akemi/Flarveon/Poppy Pandacoon WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/flarveon/ WHAT: I asked her to make a tail for me and paid $30 in cash, this commission was taken in person so I have no digital proof of the transaction. WHEN: In around March last year I asked Akemi to make me a tail at a local coffee meet and paid her in cash. I told her the details and showed references from my FA page. I asked if it could be done by FurDU, a convention on the Gold Coast in Australia, which was at the end of April. She agreed that she could have it done by that time. I didn't ask her about it for some time even after the deadline passed, nor did I have any contact from her about it, I'm quite a patient person. I was the first to initiate contact again via PM in May of last year at which time she stated she had received the wrong fur and offered me a refund, which I accepted. She said it would be in my account the following Wednesday but then sent a PM almost a week later saying that she couldn't pay. I said that it was fine and I understood. There was no further contact on this matter until November last year when I again asked about my refund, this time over FA notes. She said she couldn't pay me because she had to put it towards bond and only gets paid fortnightly but would pay me the next time she was paid. I said I would contact her in a week but I didn't feel comfortable, I was following her journals at the time about her moving and I felt that if I contacted her again I would just get another run around. Finally in March this year I told her not to worry about the refund, I had seen her journals about needing surgery so I thought it might help her out and I didn't feel like flogging a dead horse any longer. PROOF: EXPLAIN: I did resolve this issue I suppose, by giving up (never got a note back after that final one btw although it was read). It was annoying that she owed me money but was taking commissions, selling suits, working and BUYING commissions (and a new Artslave suit recently?) but didn't have $30 to pay me.