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  1. flucket

    Beware: Jazz-o

    One of these things is 👏 not 👏 like 👏 the 👏 other 👏!
  2. Er, sorry for double posting but I can't edit my post so just to add (if the mods can edit the post, feel free to add this message to my original post rather than approving this double post) - all that being said, just to clear my own personal conscience: as poor as this artist's behaviour was, I do think spamming their twitter beware with replies to this beware constitutes as harassment. That's my personal opinion, no one is required to agree with me, but yeah, I do think maybe just QRTing the original tweet with a link to this beware then washing your hands of it is enough. It sucks they were giving an intentionally inaccurate account of events to make you look worse, but I don't think anything was gained from responding to every tweet in their thread with the exact same message except to make them feel frustrated and overwhelmed and escalate the situation emotionally. Their behaviour is a different issue and is still absolutely appalling. I just feel the need to say that. Also: Was there meant to be a twitter screencap accompanying this? Because nothing is showing up for me, so I'm not sure what this is referring to.
  3. What can I say but "yikes!" This is, from toe to tip, a really concerning commission and I am genuinely so, so sorry for you, OP, that you were put through this treatment. Nobody deserves to be treated this way by someone who is accepting payment from them (or anyone in general, but in a professional setting it's extra yikes!), but I gotta just gripe about the two things that leapt out at me as the most concerning: "my tos does state that if it's been less than 6 months I can do only 75% refunds" - besides being a baldfaced lie, since no where in the TOS (of the caps provided) does this clause exist, it's also HYPER suss to me personally that they would not provide a full refund for mysteriously the same window of time as the PayPal chargeback window. Basically - you're not allowed to chargeback for a full refund while your buyer protection allows it, and only afterwards do you get a full refund, predicated entirely upon the artist operating in good faith? Really? I dunno man. Even if that was in the TOS, it'd be a crimson red flag to me. Telling you that you will be blacklisted for getting a refund. Even if they backpedalled on this, it is wild to me that they really put this threat on the table at all. I literally cannot read that entire interaction at all as anything buy bullying, coercing, and guilt-tripping you out of wanting a refund, and it's a bad look. I mean that whole exchange was bonechilling. Pulling up nonexistent TOS clauses, threatening you, then after you continue to respond with a great deal of patience and reasonability, "I'm sorry it came off that way" - basically a step down from "I'm sorry you felt that way" as far as I'm concerned - and deflecting their behaviour by pointing out your "hurtful" behaviour as being partially at fault for making them feel "irked". Considering Mugs has a manager, and said manager even took over the conversation later that evening, I can't fathom why it wasn't given to Tabby to handle from the beginning if Mugs knew they were tired and irritable. Anyway, I don't wanna make another really long comment on a beware again, ahaha. It's just so much of their behaviour was really maddening and really concerning that it's impossible to even react to it all, but just these two points especially, as business practices, are so insanely sketchy and unsettling to me I wanted to stress my discomfort at reading them. For OP: Again, I am so sorry you had to deal with this. You should be commended on your classiness in handling this, because even when you became short, you were never rude, and your unicorn character is very cute. Just a bit if positivity to end this on. 💛
  4. I don't want to repeat anything that anyone else has said, I think armaina's advice post is a good last word and so normally I wouldn't have added anything. I'm just... I'm just feeling extremely flabbergasted that there has been literally NO apology for the message from the boyfriend? Am I wrong? I reread through everything twice and I didn't pick it up, can someone direct me to an apology over the boyfriend's actions if there was one? No matter how frustrated, justified or not, I might end up at a client, I would be absolutely fucking mortified if someone close to me spoke to a client that way, and on my own account no less. But it just sort of went completely uncommented upon by the artist? Was there a private apology that wasn't provided in the post? The artist seems to be trying to take some kind of measure of responsibility for their actions, but there has been zero mention of any feeling of contrition over their boyfriend using their discord account to speak to Eelowyn in a truly revolting manner. "cant give you the cum out of my balls"? Really? You don't feel the need to offer an apology for that? I don't know if Toasti is still reading these comments, but I can't say I'd ever want to commission anyone who seemed to comfortable and justified in allowing their boyfriend to speak to their paying customers in that way. It's creepy, it's inappropriate, and the lack of any kind of apology is shocking to me. Toasti may insist this is an "isolated incident", but I feel doubtful about that considering they confessed straight to Eelowyn at the beginning they had an "angry commissioner causing drama". I imagine if Eelowyn hadn't gone public with this beware and proof of Toasti's actions, they would have been marked down as an angry commissioner causing drama too.
  5. Person with (severe) anxiety that leads to actual memory blackouts chiming it FWIW (disclaimer: my experience w/ mental illness is not everyone's, what I have to say is pure anecdata): Anxiety does not tend to make me forget about $450 transactions. Anxiety makes me much more acutely aware of $450 transactions because $450 is a lot of money and that kind of burden of wealth actually tends to stick in my anxiety-riddled brain. So I dunno, there's no way to state for sure what her mental state might be, but "my anxiety made me forget about an entire extended conversation over multiple days (timestamps on FA notes are Aug 2nd and 3rd so it's not like an hour long conversation that it's possible to black out, it's at least two days of correspondence) and that someone sent me $450 dollars" is extremely suspect. To be honest it's the fact that the conversation about the transaction with the other person took place over at least two days that make me doubt the legitimacy of the "anxiety" thing, as generally, these blackout fugue states don't tend to last multiple days - and also generally, these blackout fugue states tend to come with mental lethargy that makes doing things as complicated as detailed correspondence and large transactions pretty difficult. At least for me, when I have these blackouts, I mostly just do stupid shit like put my wallet in the fridge crisper drawers or peel half a potato for no reason and then leave it in the sink. Again, this is all purely just me. I'm not going to try to speak with authority on how other people's mental illness impacts them. But even if it is legitimate, I just think saying, "Yes, I did this. It was wrong of me to do, I apologise for my actions. I'll discuss refunds with you and the other person involved to rectify this situation" would suffice. I'm so sorry you got burned like this, OP. It's such an ugly situation, and I truly hope you get your full refund.
  6. Re: the edits, I second everything Celestina said, but I wanted to add some further advice in general because of what you said about your TOS gave me pause. In the future, simply having it posted freely available should not be enough. Linking it on your YCH posts going forward is also a good step, but I would also, before accepting money, specifically link your TOS to your clients and have them respond with clear, written agreement to it. Assuming your clients read and agreed to your TOS just because it's freely available isn't good business practice, and unless this client specifically expressed that they had read and agreed to your terms before going in to the transaction, holding them to a TOS they clearly weren't aware even existed... I kiiiind of feel that fumble is on you, sorry. ? You, and others, are free to disagree with me on that, but situations like this is exactly why you should always have this in writing.
  7. Not to harp on you, because you're right, right to refuse service is NOT a red flag at all and every artist has that right, whether or not they put it in writing. I can only speak for myself, but I think others here may agree with me: Goldenwolfen's "Asshole Clause" is just NOT a "right to refuse service" clause. Not just because it has a rude name, but because the clause is "if I don't like how you treat me I will just block you and keep your money", and that has nothing to do with right to refuse service, that's just blocking someone and keeping money you haven't fully earned because you feel it's... I don't know, compensation? Or something? Right to refuse service would be (to me at least) refunding the client, THEN blocking and blacklisting them if you so wish. Wash your hands of the business, and maybe flip what work you have on the commission as a YCH to make some money back. But saying "your money is just mine now and you get nothing because you were rude" is a hell of a red flag. It's a problem because what could be counted as, in GW's own words, "belligerent, rude, overly demanding [...] disrespectful, threatening [...] or otherwise mean and nasty" is entirely up to the discretion of the artist, and just listing synonyms of "rude" doesn't really give much framework of what falls into "asshole" territory. If a client who has paid in full and has been waiting, I don't know, three years including the 17 months to just have the commission started, finally says enough is enough and asks GW if they can have their commission done by X date or a refund, and when GW responds that they need to "chill and be patient" or whatever, the fed up client tells them they want the art or a refund in a firmer tone or they'll make an AB, does that count as "threatening" or "overly demanding"? Are they being belligerent or nasty because GW perceives their firm demand for their work or a refund as overstepping a boundary, or them ignoring the TOS ("I can offer NO time frame on commissions. Period.")? Is a client who sends monthly requests for updates on their commission going to be seen as overly demanding, or belligerent, because GW might personally find being chased up on the reg kind of overwhelming - especially if even only half of their waiting clients are sending monthly emails, that's still what, a couple dozen emails a month? They might not, of course! GW may be perfectly patient and understanding with their worried clients! But they might also not be, and there's really no way to tell because the wording is vague and the terms are completely beholden to how the artist feels and the stakes are a little too high to risk. Every artist has a right to refuse service. And even if they want to call it an "Asshole Clause" I don't care myself, I can read that as kind of tongue-in-cheek. But when that clause is extremely vague as to what constitutes as bad behaviour and includes getting to keep all the money while the client gets blocked, with no way to try to negotiate a refund, that's... I dunno, to me that just feels kind of threatening, ironically. TL;DR: Every artist certainly has a right to refuse service but I feel it's a moot point to even bring up because GW's "Asshole Clause" doesn't remotely resemble a right to refuse service clause. It just feels like a clause to coerce clients into not kicking up a fuss or risk losing their money and the commission.
  8. Okay, well, I don't see how it was "dumbed down" to that when those are literally the only two options here? You can either wait for the commission or ask for a refund. Or I guess give up on seeing your money and your art altogether, but that doesn't sound like a fun result. Forgive me if there's another option I'm not seeing here. ? And looking at that list of other people waiting for work is... exactly why I'd ask for a refund myself. You posed the hypothetical question "would other people would take a refund after four years", the answer for me would be a resounding yes because at that point even if I got the art, looking at it leave a bitter taste in my mouth. If you're absolutely set on the art, though, I'd recommend being a little less chill and a little more firm. You shouldn't have to be the one chasing the artist around, but as you said, it reads a lot like an artist taking advantage of a very laid back personality to put off giving results, maybe prioritising some of those many other waiting clients who are less chill (This isn't me putting the blame on you in any way, just agreeing that they are probably taking advantage of your attitude).
  9. This is some backwards logic in my opinion. First of all, a commission shouldn't be a competition with a victory state and a defeat state, and if you're at a point where you're viewing it that way, I think it's time to give up the commission personally. Second, asking for your money back and deciding against doing business with someone is exactly how you tell an artist that it's not okay to treat clients like that. Allowing the artist to keep the money indefinitely in some kind of endurance battle to see who gives out first doesn't really translate to "I don't approve of how you treat me as a customer." Refusing to continue to be their customer, by asking for a refund, seems far more effective. This isn't a fight, this isn't a game of chicken, there's no "defeat", there's just $25 you need to decide if you'd like back or not. But whatever, that's just me onion.
  10. If this were a business transaction, I'd agree. But having someone message you out of nowhere when you don't publicly post your email anywhere (already creepy) asking you to hand over your character, and then when you refuse telling you to "kill yourself fa***t" does not, in my books, warrant any kind of civility from you. Would simply blocking them the first moment they got hostile been a better way of handling it? Yes, I agree actually! Does it in any way undermine the OP for calling someone a fairly tame insult after being told to go kill himself followed up by an actual slur? Man, I dunno, to each their own I guess, and if that's your feelings that's your feelings. But I certainly wouldn't feel uncomfortable dealing with OP over that. I'd have said a lot worse than "asswipe" if someone called me by a slur and told me to kill myself (over a pony OC). Also, just a general thing, opening with "I don't care what people think of you" is already pretty dang loaded, looked kinda like he was softballing a threat about using your reputation against you right from the get go, OP. Sucks you had to deal with this!
  11. Uuuh. UUUUUUH. They certainly own the man hours of work they paid for, surely? When you commission an artist or fursuit maker for custom work, you're paying them not just for the product but for their time and skill, which is why a fursuit costs more than just the cost of materials. But on the flip side, they literally paid you for your time, they are owed that time. From people who paid you money in the four digits and have been patiently waiting two years for any kind of proof of work done? The goddamn gall of this ingrate and their wild demands, right, lmao. Right, this isn't a business, that's why you charged someone ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS, because it's not about the money, you aren't running a business, this is ART. I hope they're not lying through they're teeth that they're quitting fursuit making because literally nothing about their business model implies they're really cut out for it. I understand "I thought I could monetise doing this thing I love but the stress ended up getting too much for me", I've reached a point where I don't want to do commissions as a job and only do them occasionally for spending money to buy dumb internet t-shirts, but like. I will either crunch to finish the work and close up comms, or refund my customers in full when I find out my mental illness is getting the better of me. Because when you charge people money for art, that art becomes on demand business. ? I'm so sorry for OP, it doesn't look like you're going to get your money back but at the very least you deserved to be treated way, way better than this. Two years? Jesus. You have the patience of a saint.
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