Caution - AishaSlayde

AutoModerator · May 21, 2020

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Alkraas · May 21, 2020

Wow okay, I'm going to agree with OP that the character looks nothing like in the reference. Style is one thing, but to make a character slim instead of chubby, making the character have tiny horns and hands instead of huge, making the arms not muscular and more is not style change, it's just ignoring important key aspects of a character. I'd be upset too and unhappy about the art too, even more so that they doxxed your private email. If anything, they should've given you half the money back. Atleast that's how I see it, personally.

Eden · May 21, 2020

Okay might as well rip off the band-aid because it's going to come up regardless. This artist's gallery is full of items that look referenced from porn or some kind of 3D render like Second Life. (There's no proof of tracing, so it's not fair to claim that without it.) There's nothing wrong with using references for poses, and we're not here to critique anyone's work. I'll leave it at that. The issue is that in order to produce their work it leaves very little wiggle room to handle characters that deviate from whatever sources they're using. Your character is not thin. She's got curves, and what was delivered... just plain doesn't. That's not a stylistic difference. That's an error.

Your character doesn't match anything in their gallery, but clients don't often know how to tell whether or not what they're asking for is what the artist can produce in the first place. Rather than drastically changing the character to fit within their limits, the Artist should have declined your commission from the get go. You were looking for something that sounds stylistic, while they don't produce that kind of content.

Should you have been nicer? Yea. You get more flies with honey. But being in a line of work that has a lot of customer service aspects means handling angry clients. Doubling down on getting a character wrong is exactly how you escalate a situation rather than deescalate.

Xaila · May 21, 2020

When the finished product is in no way faithful to the reference; you know there is a problem and you cannot "its my style" your way out of it.

I'm personally under the impression that this artist heavily referenced porn or something for the pose and just ran with that without adjusting shapes and hair to match the ref. There is nothing wrong with reference but it's a tool not a crutch or an excuse to go off model regardless of price. If they couldn't faithfully come close to your character they shouldn't have taken on the work.

You have every right to be upset about this although you could have worded things better. But the artist should have seen this coming tbqh... in a fandom where appearances are everything to its members to take someone's character off model without permission is a slap in the face.

Luna996 · May 21, 2020

Depending on the state you live in you can actually file legal action for the artist leaking personal information afrer a business transaction as doing so is illegal in some states (assuming you live in the US) as a breech of client privacy.

Not only that but it is HIGHLY unprofessional and a form of DOXing.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

26 minutes ago, Alkraas said:

Wow okay, I'm going to agree with OP that the character looks nothing like in the reference. Style is one thing, but to make a character slim instead of chubby, making the character have tiny horns and hands instead of huge, making the arms not muscular and more is not style change, it's just ignoring important key aspects of a character. I'd be upset too and unhappy about the art too, even more so that they doxxed your private email. If anything, they should've given you half the money back. Atleast that's how I see it, personally.

Emails are not private, especially if they are linked with a paypal account. Doxxing, would be releasing independant bank account info, their real name as it appears on the paypal invoice and such.

15 minutes ago, Xaila said:

When the finished product is in no way faithful to the reference; you know there is a problem and you cannot "its my style" your way out of it.

I'm personally under the impression that this artist heavily referenced porn or something for the pose and just ran with that without adjusting shapes and hair to match the ref. There is nothing wrong with reference but it's a tool not a crutch or an excuse to go off model regardless of price. If they couldn't faithfully come close to your character they shouldn't have taken on the work.

You have every right to be upset about this although you could have worded things better. But the artist should have seen this coming tbqh... in a fandom where appearances are everything to its members to take someone's character off model without permission is a slap in the face.

You are right, it is not a crutch, it is a tool. No, I am not used to drawing larger preportions. had they been civil from the beginning and asked for changes without the ranting, name-calling, berating and everything else, I would have been much more inclined to work with them. I did message them here to ask if they would like changes made, pending some things. I also even asked if the staff from the server would forward the offer to them. But that part, of course, wasn't included here.

Sifyro · May 21, 2020

I've been looking at the artist gallery, it's clear that they don't have a defined style yet, their work kinda seems like traced from some photos/3D models...To be honest I don't know how the client expected something stylish with their oc by looking at the artist gallery tho :S also for something that probably costed like $10 usd. I'm not defending the artist, how they acted still was very unprofessional and I hope they learn and improve with the time, offering wips to avoid that kind of problem and let the client to ask for corrections, but the client was very disrespectful too, they could have been more soft when asking for changes and offered better and detailed feedback to make the artist understand. My advice for the client would be, if you want decent art of your character, choose an artist that shows a nice artstyle in their gallery, an style and skills you really like, and it probably won't very so cheap.

ichick · May 21, 2020

3 minutes ago, AishaSlayde said:

Emails are not private, especially if they are linked with a paypal account. Doxxing, would be releasing independant bank account info, their real name as it appears on the paypal invoice and such.

You are right, it is not a crutch, it is a tool. No, I am not used to drawing larger preportions. had they been civil from the beginning and asked for changes without the ranting, name-calling, berating and everything else, I would have been much more inclined to work with them. I did message them here to ask if they would like changes made, pending some things. I also even asked if the staff from the server would forward the offer to them. But that part, of course, wasn't included here.

What part of email is not private? i use my email for private matters my banking my PAYPAL! my cards etc, what part of that isn't private? i would understand if it were a throw away but thats just false. you also broke the one thing i asked at the beginning which is to keep the commission private, you just bypassed that and posted it anyways.

Luna996 · May 21, 2020

5 minutes ago, AishaSlayde said:

Emails are not private, especially if they are linked with a paypal account. Doxxing, would be releasing independant bank account info, their real name as it appears on the paypal invoice and such.

You are right, it is not a crutch, it is a tool. No, I am not used to drawing larger preportions. had they been civil from the beginning and asked for changes without the ranting, name-calling, berating and everything else, I would have been much more inclined to work with them. I did message them here to ask if they would like changes made, pending some things. I also even asked if the staff from the server would forward the offer to them. But that part, of course, wasn't included here.

You uploaded their email (private or not) as an act of malicious intent by using defamation/slander. That is a form of doxing.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

6 minutes ago, ichick said:

What part of email is not private? i use my email for private matters my banking my PAYPAL! my cards etc, what part of that isn't private? i would understand if it were a throw away but thats just false. you also broke the one thing i asked at the beginning which is to keep the commission private, you just bypassed that and posted it anyways.

I did not, I only uploaded it AFTER you opened the paypal case, as I needed a place for it to be housed so I could provide paypal with a link. The upload literally even eludes to that, but, somehow, you decided not to include that fact.

Edited May 21, 2020 by AishaSlayde

Eden · May 21, 2020

1 minute ago, Luna996 said:

You uploaded their email (private or not) as an act of malicious intent by using defamation/slander. That is a form of doxing.

[snip image for size]

Whoa putting my mod hat on: I'm gonna stop this conversation from both of you. @Luna996 @AishaSlayde

Aisha sharing their side isn't libel. They're welcome to talk about it, and they provided evidence. Remember, libel is untrue things.

Ethically releasing something not public can be considered harassment. It's why we make people censor a ton of stuff.

ichick · May 21, 2020

6 minutes ago, AishaSlayde said:

I did not, I only uploaded it AFTER you opened the paypal case, as I needed a place for it to be housed so I could provide paypal with a link. The upload literally even eludes to that, but, somehow, you decided not to include that fact.

wait what does that have to do with anything, your diverting the situation away from yourself i really don't like that.

Xaila · May 21, 2020

14 minutes ago, AishaSlayde said:

No, I am not used to drawing larger preportions.

WHY did you not clarify this to the client? That's something you say from the getgo. You told them and I quote from the caps

"Of course :3 She's cute, love the horns too"

A lot of artists when posting that they're open for commissions will list their strengths and weaknesses in what they can draw. If you cannot draw past your referenced images of slender large breasted women(and obviously large horns that you recognized were a big feature but you did not draw) the onus is on you to declare that and confirm your client understands because not all clients are gonna do their homework so if you don't want repeats of this; this is what you have to do.

BTW... Attempting to tone police OP's dissatisfaction when we're talking about you is an attempt to derail I am not taking.

Also no mod of any website or server should ever communicate FOR YOU in the event of a block because that can be read as a block evasion by the one who initiated said block.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

10 minutes ago, Xaila said:

WHY did you not clarify this to the client?

I figured that was apparent as an example was provided, and they could have at any time looked through the entirety of my gallery.

11 minutes ago, Xaila said:

BTW... Attempting to tone police OP's dissatisfaction when we're talking about you is an attempt to derail I am not taking.

I am doing no such thing, I am simply stating that things would have gone better had that happened.

12 minutes ago, Xaila said:

because not all clients are gonna do their homework

When I commission anyone, I ask a lot of questions, I do a lot of research. It would behoove others to do the same. I am not going to list all of that for each advertisement, people should have a bit of forethought when it comes to commissioning someone.

13 minutes ago, Xaila said:

Also no mod of any website or server should ever communicate FOR YOU

Those mods came to me, asking if I would offer a solution. I did. I did not ask them to communicate for me, or to me. I said to extend the offer, IF they wanted to. They do not have to, nor are they required to.

Xaila · May 21, 2020

They may have looked or may not have looked but the exact moment they gave you the reference, I repeat the onus is still on you to clarify.

And yes. You are. While we can all agree they came out strong with their anger you did jackall to turn it around in an appropriate manner; and you continue to lean on the excuse that they needed to be nicer to you.

Annnd... again. Not everyone is you. Not everyone will do their research especially when you put an inexpensive slot at a limited amount out there. I'm telling you this so you don't get a repeat of this situation and instead you scoff. So you obviously don't want to learn how to avoid this and would rather wallow in a type of victimhood that isn't doing you favors and I'm only exacerbating trying to tell you so. So this will be the last you get from me, for my own piece of mind.

armaina · May 21, 2020

You say you would have made your changes had the client been nicer but they were nice in the beginning. They pointed out things in a bit of dismay, shocked at what they had received, and upon seeing their response you, Aisha, were deflective of every single concern and had an excuse for every issue pointed out, which lead to the client being rightly flabbergasted and frustrated at how their concerns were brushed off by you. Even if I find their anger off-putting at the end, it was a direct reaction to your attitude. If you genuinely meant to change anything, the very first time the Client pointed out a problem you would have said 'you know what, you're right, I apologize, what can I do to change it?'.

You have a lot of different characters in your gallery, none of which says that you are incapable of drawing big hair or big horns, neither of which you even attempted to do, the hair length isn't even remotely in the same ballpark as the provided image. It feels more like you took a sketch from a personal project, slapped tiny horns on it, and tried to claim it was this person's character. You didn't even provide the client a sketch before hand, to ensure you had any of the elements correct, before moving on to the final piece. This is wildly unprofessional, you should be showing your client at least one WIP between every step to ensure you're on the right track, both for yourself and your client.

Sometimes, some people's galleries are so full of niche work for commissions, they don't get to draw outside of their niche (see: Furry artists that can draw humans, want to draw humans, but never get commissioned for them so it perpetuates the idea that they 'don't' draw humans). That being said, I probably wouldn't have purchased a commission of the character provided by the Client after looking through your gallery, as you only ever draw one body type. But even that isn't justification for how you treated the client, you took the commission and gave them the impression you were capable of getting at least somewhat close to the body type provided. If I ever get a request I feel I cannot accomplish I tell the client up-front that I don't think I'm the right fit for their commission. It saves myself AND the client, a lot of anguish. I believe in giving the best most accurate product to my clients as I can, and being able to admit when I may not be able to do what a client would like is an important element of respect and consideration for the client that all artists should have.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

5 minutes ago, Xaila said:

And yes. You are. While we can all agree they came out strong with their anger you did jackall to turn it around in an appropriate manner; and you continue to lean on the excuse that they needed to be nicer to you.

That isnt true. I was pretty civil during the entire conversation. They also did not include the portion of the conversation where I offered them advice on the paypal case thing. Knowing how paypal worked, and knowing that it would further violate my ToS.

On the people being nicer thing. As stated in these comments befoer, you get more flies with honey. When you treat people like garbage, everyne being human, many times, you are going to get the same thing back. Could I have been a bit more professional? Yes. Alas, I am human and I let my emotion get the best of me in those moments.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

I have further asked if they wanted the changes made pending some things, they said no. They said they wanted the refund they are trying to process through paypal.

I asked if I issued the refund, what would happen. They said they would mark it as recolved. And for me to take down the beware on my site.

I countered with my offer of the refund, removing the beware on my site, and they have this one removed. I have yet to hear back.

Eden · May 21, 2020

7 minutes ago, AishaSlayde said:

I have further asked if they wanted the changes made pending some things, they said no. They said they wanted the refund they are trying to process through paypal.

I asked if I issued the refund, what would happen. They said they would mark it as recolved. And for me to take down the beware on my site.

I countered with my offer of the refund, removing the beware on my site, and they have this one removed. I have yet to hear back.

They have no ability to delete posts. Our site is not a bargaining chip. We normally escalate cautions to bewares for holding resolution hostage in exchange for deletion. We moved from livejournal to a site that allows us to disable user deletion or edits to prevent this.

I'm going to operate under the benefit of the doubt that you missed the various notices that we don't delete, and not escalate this to a beware. The big, bold red notices.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

9 minutes ago, Celestina said:

They have no ability to delete posts. Our site is not a bargaining chip. We normally escalate cautions to bewares for holding resolution hostage in exchange for deletion. We moved from livejournal to a site that allows us to disable user deletion or edits to prevent this.

I'm going to operate under the benefit of the doubt that you missed the various notices that we don't delete, and not escalate this to a beware. The big, bold red notices.

I dont get on AB a lot, I dont really have a reason to. I know a long time ago it used to be on live-journal. I only requested that they ask for it to be deleted, as they were asking me to delete mine. Which I have the ability to do on my own site, I would assume that the ability to delete from here is also available to either Moderators, administrators and so on.

sbneko · May 21, 2020

14 minutes ago, AishaSlayde said:

I dont get on AB a lot, I dont really have a reason to. I know a long time ago it used to be on live-journal. I only requested that they ask for it to be deleted, as they were asking me to delete mine. Which I have the ability to do on my own site, I would assume that the ability to delete from here is also available to either Moderators, administrators and so on.

The ability to delete is there, what they were trying to say is that deleting is against the rules of this particular site. Information on that is at the top of this post, but here's a direct link for you: https://artistsbeware.info/postedtoab/

Alex Wright · May 21, 2020

Umm hi hello. Web Admin here. While I won't be touching on the validity of the complaints, however much I must agree that the disparity between subject and finish piece is quite large...

Displaying private information, such as email, name, IP Address or other PII without the express consent of the third party is a violation of several laws. Most notable among these is the European GDPR regulations. While your site may not be located in the EU, so long as it remains accessible from and/or provides services to the EU, GDPR applies.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

6 minutes ago, sbneko said:

The ability to delete is there, what they were trying to say is that deleting is against the rules of this particular site. Information on that is at the top of this post, but here's a direct link for you: https://artistsbeware.info/postedtoab/

Ahhh, allright. As I mentioned just a moment ago. I dont get on here much, never really had a reason to. I have no idea what is in updates and all that. Literally, today is the first time I have actually come here and logged in, in a very long time.

Rendrassa · May 21, 2020

As an artist, I would hate being addressed like this, even if the client's complaint is valid. Exploding instantly like this makes people go heavily on the defensive where a civil tone could have paved the way to corrections/negotiations.

That said, as an artist, it's important to accept when things can't be done due to personal skill or issues. Or to accept if a client is unhappy after being promised certain things and those things aren't done. This is why sketch WIPs are important, or in case of wing-its, being able to accept fault for missing something in the ref. Communication is always key and I find myself sometimes on the border of annoying clients with detail questions so I can be sure I'm as accurate to what they are envisioning.

Sometimes things go wrong and that's why it is so important to be able to handle this on either side of the commission experience.

AishaSlayde · May 21, 2020

Called paypal up, had them force the claim I escalated their case to in order to perform the refund. (As once its escalated to a claim, the option for me to refund manually is no longer available)

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