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  • Beware - beesandcubs


    alecrimcarmim
    • Who: buyer
      Where: https://www.instagram.com/beesandcubs/
      https://www.instagram.com/wetsnobblobb/
      When: 05/21/2020
      What: Commission


    Xaila

    Mod Note:

    Please do not use this post to argue on the validity of the cancellation. Thank you.

    Message added by Xaila

    Client was terminated from an Artistic Liberty quote before payment was made since the changes requested by them on the concept provided during the first contact were not interesting for the studio production at the time and the unpaid design created during quote was kept by the studio, as described on the TOS agreed by said client during the application process.

    Link to our TOS
     
    Client tried to continue the application process but we already sent the email terminating it and we didn't felt it was necessary to proceed contact, since no invoices were sent and no further agreements were made - at that stage we already let the client know that the design created for that commission would stay under the studio property.
     
    Weeks after said client decided to public harass our studio on our own posts on Instagram and after being blocked on multiple accounts for doing so, started to spread misinformation about our TOS, the commission process and also decided to claim the unpaid design as their own under claims that goes against the TOS agreed on before the design was sent to them. We sent a private message to the third account and by that time it felt like the situation was under control.
     
    The harassment continued the next day with another account claiming the studio stole the client OC, tagging other clients and spreading more half truths and accusations.
     
    The studio posted a public note via Instagram stories to spread awareness on the information and also decided to share on beware groups what happened. One of our followers let us know the client still insists on spreading false information and we decided to enlighten the situation public posting everything here.
    These are the accounts that continued harassing us and our clients/followers: 

    @wetsnobblobb  < has posted the stories spreading misinformation
    @foolish.adopts  < has harassed us on posts
    @beesandcubs < first account to start online harassment
    [Moderator Note: A 4th IG that was harassing OP exists, but the account is held by someone underaged so we have censored it out.]
     
    That user is claiming that the art is stolen and that our character sheet bases are also stolen fro] third party, which is a blatant lie since our lead artist has all the files and recipes to prove that all the art was created by us and belong to Alecrim Carmim brand. 
     
    To clarify any half truths shared by the accounts listed before:
     
     - Our art is 100% designed by our lead artist. We have all the files and proof of the authenticity of our creations, designs and production;
     
    - We never ghost any client; in that specific case, we simply terminate the commission and sent an email informing the client on said termination and reason (the project was not interesting for production at that time);

    - No designs were stolen from the client; in fact, our design is being claimed without payment by said client under accusations that "since the mood board and directions were given, the character belongs to them”; said claim goes straight against our TOS (that was agreed on BEFORE the commission process even began by the client);
     
    - No invoices were sent to the client before the commission termination. Not the 30% from the commission process nor any amount of money was received from the client by Alecrim Carmim. Preparing / being ready to pay does not mean actually making a payment.
     
    We always ask for future clients multiple times to read AND agree with our TOS before moving forward with the commission process. For our sake and for the sake of our current clients and followers, we’re deleting that design made for that specific commission from our social media and premade library. 
     
    We do not stand for harassment and we do not want to associate with the illegal usage of our intellectual property, no matter the claims. We're a positive brand that try our best to avoid that kind of drama, but sadly some of that might hit our way once or twice in our studio development.

    For that reason, we decided to expose the situation and upload a client beware so our fellow makers have some feedback on said client for future reference. All the relevant screencaps are attached to this message.

    formcap.thumb.png.7913c143df97c680a8133e7ed4c8bacd.png

    client_moodboard.jpg.554e1976e91a1caa92be4451b8e3b944.jpg.27b88280e40f1a800f2ce1fa3e43c976.jpg

    email_01.jpg.d274a8c3aa0d21aaa3ac377e293c6e0e.thumb.jpg.40e11fcf44d55c8961797e9578118ce3.jpg

    email_02.jpg.bd704fbeea6600419c5de4f7fb6ff4b1.thumb.jpg.27204675156eb880f16f6cf8704d5dc8.jpg

    email_04.jpg.04e526d7725b8658ec5d7e0a9427c984.thumb.jpg.ed2f4d780bfa2bf5356c1cb47c4c2978.jpg

    email_05.jpg.ee031a22bfaa13b789264100e2c16fd8.thumb.jpg.83984274bb1cd4f19baecfc69a778c82.jpg

    email_08.jpg.b85059f2d14d448fcfa07630b89535c4.thumb.jpg.be8ab3dddc02e03d5c8cd03192dbc44b.jpg

    proof_that_the_client_was_informed.jpg

    1261423692_partoftosregardingdesignscreatedbythestudio.thumb.jpg.c35f3255438e98519bfe595ccb9a3eef.jpg

    beesandcubpublic.png.ce879cd67ff8b282dc8120858e4c175c.png

    filettofish2.png.be9753aef2ca5a33fba6ab0f932d03bc.png

    foolishadops.png.46d289a6a39de7851ea9ea8e5495e2f0.png

    harassment_proof_on_posts.jpg.92f496c9700c22fb05397369356bcb402.jpg.2171c25593282c65b8ca723fff3c3f39.jpg

    our_reply_to_the_stories_posted_by_third_account.jpg

    our_public_statement_on_the_matter.thumb.jpg.9f965bcf4120fe3d70946ff027bb85f7.jpg

    client_stories01.jpg.a70e7f2283b23283af7a9b2db5bca69b.thumb.jpg.d4c62465c5479c8f861e8025bf99539f.jpg  client_stories02.jpg.c422ca75dfab6e43b71aab8b13e40fff.thumb.jpg.411b6c5c1d0d29d27b281eaa1bdaf8e2.jpg

    client_stories03.jpg.008eff820356126b4272deff6b060dfd.thumb.jpg.6b06c55239cf3bf2b0bd7f310cf11862.jpg client_stories04.jpg.32695d79721ee03e1000dd29f8ad436f.thumb.jpg.de2ddb0029569da279b0c501cb5f0028.jpg

    client_stories05.jpg.47fa19e9eadbc9d3819648b0f27f1716.thumb.jpg.018fc46d882058f6210d3f550f6ef81f.jpg client_stories06.jpg.f482626157be3fc4d4f58c0411c2418d.thumb.jpg.ee9449c69265c4aed8e818b5aa621d6b.jpg

    client_stories07.jpg.2c79d405eb792edb1e07ab56c435f8e0.thumb.jpg.a24fd97268364f87b66c17b7f99b006b.jpg

    The art itself is being used without credit and the Client is claiming the design to be their character.

    Screenshot_20200522-145631_Instagram.thumb.jpg.b31074d757231d125251faef7b75e123.jpg

    In addition, the Client attempted to sell the design, using the full original, unpaid artwork in the advertisement on May 9th

    Screenshot_20200522-143655_Instagram.thumb.jpg.9201435057198cbe19819ca28a5dc34c.jpg



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    I have to say this beware is extremely strange to me. Due to the pseudo-legalize speak you're using to explain the situation it's hard to really understand what the commission was about. 

    As someone who commissions art, I would be extremely aggravated if someone designed a character to my specifications, cancelled the commission, and kept or planned to resell the design elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that no work should have started before payment was exchanged. I dunno this is a weird one for me. Artists have the right to cancel a commission when they want but with designing a character it becomes a little shakier because you effectively took their concept and claimed it as your own and are only deleting it due to the backlash. 

    I will add their harassment of you is completely uncalled for and they shouldn't be making unfounded accusations or sending people to harass you. Nor should they be attempting to resell a design they never actually paid for.

    This is a messy situation all around. 

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    5 minutes ago, Bourbon said:

    I have to say this beware is extremely strange to me. Due to the pseudo-legalize speak you're using to explain the situation it's hard to really understand what the commission was about. 

    Just as an aside, the OP's main language isn't English.  It was an artistic liberty commission where the studio would be given a loose prompt to follow, and the resulting character they made would be made into the suit.  In this case, they were handed a mood board and the rest was up to the studio to design.  Technically, the character was made by them with limited input from the client.

    Kind of like if you or me were handed a colourlovers swatch guide and "dog" as a prompt and the rest was left up to us to design.

    Hopefully that helps clear up any confusion about what the commission was!

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    In case it has been missed all the client provided was: Feline/Bat, Neon Pink, Neon Green, Black, White, Holographic Nose, Tongue, and a moodboard, that is it. Not a single direction was given for the markings, the placement of the colors, the hue/value of the colors, body type and shape, or anything else. To say that the Client 'designed' the character is absurd, there's not enough here that the client explicitly directed that makes it unique to them alone. The design came wholly from the artist themselves and the Client has absolutely no claim to it, whatsoever.

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    My only hope for this studio, is that after this incident they take to heart one of two things.

    ONE: If you will be 'inspired' and do the work before money is exchanged; heavily watermark your pieces with 'UNPAID WIP' and do not give them in a high res format.

    TWO: Don't lift a stylus until you get your money.

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    There are just 2 things I don't get

    1 - Why did they send a pastel moodboard and then asked for a character made in black and neon? why the heck even send thar moodboard if you want a design that has nothing to do with it? (and then complain that "IT WAS MADE USING MY MOODBOARD" hm, clearly no? it was made using the colors you said you wanted that aren't even on the board?)

    2 - Why are they selling it so cheap? when you fight for something that hard you should keep it right? or at least sell for a decent price, thats a headache for only $12 the heck

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    41 minutes ago, Bourbon said:

    I have to say this beware is extremely strange to me. Due to the pseudo-legalize speak you're using to explain the situation it's hard to really understand what the commission was about. 

    As someone who commissions art, I would be extremely aggravated if someone designed a character to my specifications, cancelled the commission, and kept or planned to resell the design elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that no work should have started before payment was exchanged. I dunno this is a weird one for me. Artists have the right to cancel a commission when they want but with designing a character it becomes a little shakier because you effectively took their concept and claimed it as your own and are only deleting it due to the backlash. 

    I will add their harassment of you is completely uncalled for and they shouldn't be making unfounded accusations or sending people to harass you. Nor should they be attempting to resell a design they never actually paid for.

    This is a messy situation all around. 

    That was our last commission sent without the watermark because previously to this whole thing we had another design claimed without payment and we finally learned our lesson about that. The thing is that this whole situation happened out of nowhere and we didn't even know that the client was using our art as theirs or even tried to sell the design previously. It was an extra information provided to us by this website and we were very surprised the client had breached our TOS before even starting this whole mess.

    We just decided to bring this to light because our reputation is very important for us, as being a new brand trying to establish our work in the fandom and getting backlash by a person who couldn't even respect the terms agreed on during the quote submission is something worth exposing for future people who work with this specific client.

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    37 minutes ago, Xaila said:

    My only hope for this studio, is that after this incident they take to heart one of two things.

    ONE: If you will be 'inspired' and do the work before money is exchanged; heavily watermark your pieces with 'UNPAID WIP' and do not give them in a high res format.

    TWO: Don't lift a stylus until you get your money.

    We learned our lesson on that behalf not even with this entire situation, but with a previous similar experience, and all the quotes for artistic liberty sent since have a disclaimer and a watermark to prevent this from happening again.

    AC_E20_BAT_BRIDGET_CHARACTERSHEET_V1.png

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    Bourbon

    Posted (edited)

    50 minutes ago, Celestina said:

    Snip

    Thank you for the clarification! That's what I kinda thought was going on but I wasn't absolutely sure. 

     

    Edit: Fixed a typo

    Edited by Bourbon

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    4 hours ago, armaina said:

    In case it has been missed all the client provided was: Feline/Bat, Neon Pink, Neon Green, Black, White, Holographic Nose, Tongue, and a moodboard, that is it. Not a single direction was given for the markings, the placement of the colors, the hue/value of the colors, body type and shape, or anything else. To say that the Client 'designed' the character is absurd, there's not enough here that the client explicitly directed that makes it unique to them alone. The design came wholly from the artist themselves and the Client has absolutely no claim to it, whatsoever.

    Yes this. The client has no hold over the final design because the artist created it, all they gave were stock photos and asked the artist to make something of it. And what they made didn't even come from the mood board so they need to quit using that as some sort of hold against them. The client does not have any right to keep the design.

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    Instead ol letting go of the design, the client is still using convenient half truths to claim de design and keep creating new accounts to harass us. Just to keep this post updated. The account blocked doesn't even have an icon, 0 followers, etc. And the stories are shared here to prove that the client is still keeping the design with minimal changes to to it. 

    At this point this is just a matter of exposing messing behaviour. Don’t be like this, respect the makers, don’t commission from someone if you don’t agree with their work ethics / terms. 

    And most importantly: don’t steal art no claim something as yours disregarding any effort of the creator.

    more_accounts.jpg

    stories01.jpg

    stories02.jpg

    stories03.jpg

    stories04.jpg

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    It might be time to get in contact with Instagram's abuse team. It's pretty obnoxious as a whole that they don't have the ability to report block evasion outright, but you can file a report with them. 

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    Man, what a mess. Just because they gave you a description and a moodboard doesn't mean they own the character OP's brand produced, nothing was even remotely paid for. Then to go on on and spread harassment and inviting others to join in on it, just to sell the design for pennies after...what? I can imagine that this is was a stressful endeavor. Good on you for not backing down.

    [also probably off topic (apologies in advance, feel free to remove this if necessary), but to me it's also a red flag how they keep going on about "their" moodboard when they just slapped random pictures together, which most likely aren't theirs to begin with. It just strikes me as a red flag]

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    12 hours ago, Bourbon said:

    ...I dunno this is a weird one for me. Artists have the right to cancel a commission when they want but with designing a character it becomes a little shakier because you effectively took their concept and claimed it as your own and are only deleting it due to the backlash. 

    I will add their harassment of you is completely uncalled for and they shouldn't be making unfounded accusations or sending people to harass you. Nor should they be attempting to resell a design they never actually paid for...

    Just to clarify this specific comment that is being used against us without context by the client to support their claim:

    We deleted the design not because of the backlash, we did it because we don’t want to move forward with a design associated with drama. We try our best to provide the best service possible not only to our commissioners but also to people interested in buying our premade designs. We have no intentions of moving forward with a design tarnished with this kind of situation and it would be no problem at all for our lead artist to come up with a new design not even remotely close to that one using the same colours / mood if we feel like doing a edgy concept for a premade.

    To summarize: we’re a positive brand that don’t want to hold on drama to get our designs/work sold.

    We already got our art claimed without payment 3 times now (one of those we were able to talk with the person and sort that out, the other we just let go of it, blocking the user and blacklisting withour further drama - in this case the user kept the design quietly and by that time we didn't have time or energy to bring that to public and instead we just revised our terms of services and guidelines to prevent that from happening again, that happened almost at the same time as this specific situation and we had already sent the design to this client without the watermarkings, sadly) and for us the problem is the client attitude, stealing art is bad as it is, claiming unpaid designs is horrible, tarnishing a brand is even worst in our case since we’re beginning and we don’t need that kind of attention at all. 
     

    stories02.jpg

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    Just to keep the situation updated, we're posting more stories from client. We hope they do as they say and just let this rest. All that had to be said about this entire situation was said and once again, if a person doesn’t agree with a maker/artist terms, just don’t commish them, it’s that simple.

    We thank you all for taking your time to read all this and follow the situation as a whole. We hope we don’t need to share more proof from that client and we’re glad to make this beware to spread awareness on this kind of behaviour.

    more stories 01.jpg

    more stories 02.jpg

    more stories 03.jpg

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    How old is this individual? I'm concerned that you almost got into contract with a minor. An adult should understand the difference between reposting work that doesnt belong to them and archiving their continued harassment.

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    2 hours ago, alecrimcarmim said:

     

     

    more stories 02.jpg

     

    And of course, taking a print of the stories and updating a situation is a no no, but taking a design you didn't made, the art itself, not giving credit to it and trying to sell as your own is okay

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    29 minutes ago, Celestina said:

    How old is this individual? I'm concerned that you almost got into contract with a minor. An adult should understand the difference between reposting work that doesnt belong to them and archiving their continued harassment.

    We only do business with people older than 18, and we ask for that to be confirmed on our quote application and said client did so during our first contact... Sadly we can't confirm it's age on their IG account or anything, all we have is the information provided during the application submission.

    We just hope they stop harassing us and spreading half truths and misinformation. As I said on our last message, we don't plan on keeping track daily on what the client is doing/saying public (or to his followers/friends), since all that had to be said and exposed is here for anyone to see (at least of the public posts so far).

    To be honest, all this situation made us learn a lot, and the most important it showed us to stand our ground and that there are places to share this kind of experience in order to help others not have to deal with this experience in the future (at least we hope so).

    age.jpg

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    @alecrimcarmim, it may be wise to ask for IDs, as I've heard many makers ask for them as well. They mainly look for age and full name, the name must be the same on Paypal or they will refund the money and blacklist the client. I heard from another that if they know they're dealing with a minor, they even call the parents to make sure the purchase is legitimate. I'm not a maker and I don't ask for IDs for art and I only heard of how other makers deal with these things, but I agree with Celestina that there's a huge possibility that you've dealt with a minor, considering how awfully they behaved. Hopefully this can be laid to rest now!

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    I have to agree with Celestina, this user sounds underage. Between the way they're behaving and how they type, I get the impression they're around 16. Unfortunately people CAN lie when it comes to claiming to be 18. While having that in your TOS can waive legal issues, it doesn't stop minors from lying in order to commission something. 

    Additionally, I really don't appreciate them using my comment as part of their crusade and drama. I even said in my comment that they shouldn't be making a claim/trying to resell something they didn't pay for. REGARDLESS of if the design was made for them, they still didn't pay for it and don't get to lay claim to that art period. 

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    Just as a final update on the matter (hopefully): ex-client stopped harassing us with new accounts and so far we didn’t receive any extra updates on their stories (seems like they set it to private and that’s totally fine by us; in their safe space with the people they trust they can share anything they want. Our problem was with the open-public harassment they were doing).

    For future reference, as for this specific situation we had never terminated a commission on this stage of development before. We try our best to provide a good experience for our clients, but we’re very strict with our TOS. Since the beginning this negotiation was walking the line of us being too soft with our own terms (trying to be sensible with the client and at the moment thinking the project would be good portfolio material so it was worth being more flexible), and in the end we got the raw side of the deal.  

    Since we’re a new studio not much can be found of us online at the moment, sadly. As the brand our opinions on the matter might be taken less earnestly by people who do’t know us or our service, and for that we welcome anyone to ask our clients directly how the experience of working with us was. Most of them are tagged on our IG posts (of course, respecting their privacy and space). 

    We thank you all for your time and attention on this matter and from this entire situation we plan on changing a few things on our TOS and procedures from Artistic Liberty in the future to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again [we’ll share here so other makers can have this testimonial to refer to if they want]:

    ▫️We’ll add a more detailed clause on cancellations // terminations on these designs made by us to prevent further claim discussions about this.

    ▫️The cancellation from our side will be more explained since for us Artistic Liberty slots are pick with the main objective of being a fun project and a good portfolio material. If during negotiations the client requests changes that make the project less interesting from production we’ll reserve ourselves to terminate the quote. We’ll also make it clear that on Regular Commissions the client has all the freedom in the world to request any changes desired, to request a character to be created from 0 and pay for that kind of service accordingly (our Artist Liberty services are way cheaper than regular commissions for that reason, and we plan on letting this more clear on the TOS too). 

    ▫️We’ll stop being way too reasonable with clients that send a quote request for this kind of project without having the money to pay upfront the initial nonrefundable 30% of the commission price. Most of the cases of clients that stole our art were from people who didn’t have the money upfront to pay but wanted to move forward with the commission anyway, under their word of paying us in the future. We trust our clients until being scammed, and for that reason we plan on protecting ourselves more from that kind of situation.

    ▫️We will request an ID from now on after the quote is analyzed and approved. Working overseas might making check those IDs more difficult but it’s better than having this kind of headache again in the future.

    ▫️Clarify even more that designs created during quote or during commission process are property of the studio until payment is complete and no designs can be claimed on cancellations // terminations. We’ll be stricter with also the use of unpaid claimed designs to be made into fursuits by other makers (that didn’t happen before, but better safe than sorry).

    ▫️Making sure to attach a PDF version of our TOS in the quote confirmation email and ask the client to read and confirm agreement again before sending the invoice for the project.

    ▫️Proofreading all the TOS with English native speakers to make the terms as clear as possible for future clients (as it is right now it was only proofread by Brazilian translators).

    We welcome you and thank you in advance in helping us with your suggestions on this TOS changes, and we plan on posting a more detailed text on the forums, but feel free to PM/email us suggestions or corrections, we don’t want to flood this beware with further replies that are not direct related to the subject.

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    That all sounds like quite reasonable stipulations and a great way to go moving forward. I would also suggest making your watermark more pronounced. Someone can simply clip out that bottom red banner. It should be translucent and cover part of the artwork, making it harder to remove.

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