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  • Beware MoTheGoblin


    kevlarunitard
    • Who: MoTheGoblin
      Where: https://twitter.com/mothegoblin
      http://www.furaffinity.net/user/PigeonsAndPeaches
      When: 11/25/2019
      What: Commission

      Resolved

    Who: Mo

    Twitter: MugsTheAlien, MugsTheGoblin, MoTheGoblin

    FA: PigeonsAndPeaches

    Instagram: shrimpgoblin

    What: Sticker Pack, $125

    Where: Twitter

    Why: Misleading queue presentation, trying to break own TOS, lying about/omitting parts of our interaction in a Commissioner Beware

    Short version:

    I commissioned under the impression Mo had a reasonable-length queue. I then watched them do multiple adopts and personal art without any explanation or reason for the delay on my work (or anyone else’s). When I asked for a refund (in accordance with TOS) every attempt was made to discourage me from it until I pressed enough to get them to agree. I later gave in and agreed to continue the commission against my better judgment, accepting stickers in place of the original in hopes that it would help clear the air on the original concept. My commission was subsequently rushed and I was made to feel the villain for asking for updates and that it be finished within the buyer protection window. They left the drop shadow and stroke off the stickers and refused to let me add them myself. When I expressed I felt this was unfair, they did a beware on me with misleading and outright wrong information.

    Long version:

    In early June, my partner Ri bought an adopt (Hardy) from Mo as a surprise gift for me. I got in contact with Mo to get the name and details added to the ref sheet.

    In the course of our conversation, they convinced me to get a commission from them of the character. I’ll be honest and say I felt a little guilty because I dropped the whole “I might commission” thing and then kinda felt like I should. That’s on me. I really shouldn’t have commissioned under pressure.

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    So, I went ahead and commissioned. The commission was promised at around 2 months. Which I wasn’t in a rush, but I figured with the small amount of commissions on their queue, it wouldn’t be too long. Mo did not mention to me that their queue was WAY out of date, leading me to believe there wasn’t much ahead of me, especially since they added my project almost immediately.

     

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    In early September, Mo posted that their Trello was not up to date. I waited a couple weeks, thinking there were just a few things missing or something that had been taken after my commission. Then I checked in with them on Sep 17th. They verified that it still wasn’t up to date. I waited quietly, hoping this would be updated soon, but I was starting to get pretty stressed and worried. And resentful. In the time I was waiting to hear or see anything, Mo posted plenty of adopts and personal artwork, and advertised constantly for more commissions.


    I have nothing against artists having off days, doing personal work, etc., but there’s something very shady when you’re constantly open for commissions, your queue is out of date, and nothing you post seems to be related to completing or even working on commissions.


    I was seriously considering asking for a refund when I received a message from Mo’s manager on Oct 7, asking what I had commissioned, when, etc. Tabby (the manager) was updating Mo’s queue and rearranging things. I started to think that maybe there was some chance I’d get my stuff.

     

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    After the queue settled out, I noticed there were a lot of people placed ahead of me, and certain people had been marked as a priority, but I was not one of them despite being one of the oldest comms in the queue. After waiting another several days, I reached out to see if I could arrange a refund (and yes, understanding that it wouldn’t be immediate and that it would not be in full). It was immediately demanded that I explain why.

     

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    I explained that I felt I had been misled regarding the amount of stuff in front of me and that I was uncomfortable with all the stuff getting done ahead of me and the personal art. I was told why the delay was justified, including that they’d taken comms for “seasonal” things, were doing “minor” edits, the queue already was out of date,  etc.

    I was told they weren’t “comfortable” giving me a refund since they’d started (note again I didn’t say I wanted a 100% refund, nor did I ever; I fully expected to only get a partial refund but I just wanted to be done with it all). I will admit that I shouldn’t have accused them of slamming out the sketch without proof, but it did feel very weird that the sketch appeared about 30 minutes after I asked about a refund. Please keep in mind their comment about how their sketches are “always rough” for later.

     

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    Once the pose was explained to me, I could kind of make out what they were drawing, but honestly I still couldn’t really see many details. They also made a comment about “finding it odd” that I was asking for a refund after they started the sketch. I’m not sure what they were implying, since I hadn’t seen the sketch? And I never said I wanted a refund on work already done? I also found myself having to justify not asking for a refund when Tabby initially contacted me, but nothing was said about that being an option or a “last chance” to ask for.


    I was also threatened with being blacklisted for canceling, despite that being stated nowhere in their TOS.

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    The flurry of texts after, I honestly didn’t know how to respond. I was trying to handle things as gently as I could. I get that refunds are stressful (been there), so I didn’t have any intention of demanding anything.

    I was handed off to Tabby, which was fine. She added me to the refund list.

     

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    I was told there would be a delay, and at that point I didn’t know what else to say. I mentioned my buyer protection being a ways out, and that I would be comfortable waiting that long. In response to my “ok,” it was pressed that it would be faster to get art done, which again felt like being pressured to not do a refund. (I honestly wasn’t in a hurry, but at that point there were like, 6 weeks left?)

     

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    After a few days, I started to feel bad for asking the refund. I really do love Mo’s artwork, and I thought maybe a compromise could be reached. I reached out to Tabby about possibly getting stickers instead of the original request. I figured I’d get 5-6 for what I’d paid. I was offered 15 instead, which I thought was pretty cool.

     

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    While I was waiting, I noticed a friend of mine had gotten a (non-holiday) full body done, and I couldn’t recall having seen their stuff in queue earlier.

    Fortunately, I was provided with the sketches a few days later, and I finally started to feel like things were going well and I could get my art and have something to enjoy.

     

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    I gave feedback on the expression/pose on one sketch which was fixed. I was a little surprised, though, when the next WIP I got was full color, since their TOS states there’s a line phase to refine pose etc. Still, the only gripe I had was that since he was supposed to be “puppy eyes begging” in the sticker, I wanted his eyes shinier. I specified that I wanted it only on that particular expression, but Mo added eye shine to the rest of the stickers later on, too, which I thought was nice.

     

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    This was the next WIP I got

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    Mugs has characterized my requests for edits as “rude” and excessive. I will let the reader be the judge.

     

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    You’ll see the next interaction I had above as well. Mo had posted that they were going to be on hiatus to “deal with some family stuff,” but that clients could reach out if they had concerns. Which I did when I saw it about two days later. I was made to feel as though I had no right to ask about this, as an artist deserves a vacation, etc. etc. Again, didn’t really know what I could say or do, so I just stayed quiet until I got more updates. I was, at that point, pretty annoyed with how I’d been treated, but I wasn’t in the mood to be confrontational as I figured it would just result in my stuff being rushed.

    Updates continued, again without any WIPs between sketch and color phases. I didn’t want to ask for major changes since I wasn’t getting a chance to give feedback on lines, but I didn’t feel like most of what I was asking for was out of line. Lettering should’ve been a matter of just drawing over again, and they were nearly invisible on my phone (showed up ok on my laptop, though).

     

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    Over the weekend, I saw that the last three had been uploaded.

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    With this one, I felt like the fingers on the top left were really rushed (and honestly the whole sticker)? And looked odd. I asked for a fix on that. I also asked if there would be drop shadows like in this example that Mo has been posting as an ad on twitter for $5/each YCH sticker packs. Telegram recommends a stroke and drop shadow on all stickers, which is especially important since you can put complex pics in the background, so it didn't seem unreasonable to expect that those would be added in the finishing phase.

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    Asked if the fingers on one sticker of three could be corrected (the top left). They were very sausage-y and looked nothing like the sketch (though the sketch is very rough). After being told no, no shadows, I was told that if I was happy with it, they could send the link. I asked if it would be possible to get them without a background so I could add simple outlines, drop shadows.

     

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    I’m told I’m “rude” for wanting that, and “oops, I forgot to include the packet link!” Which tells me the stickers had already been turned into a pack and I was expected to accept them before I was even asked what I thought. I’m also told “I understand you may want things to your liking”. Well, yes, yes I do want things to my liking, since I paid $125 for this custom commission.

    I’m told I’ll be blacklisted once “the conversation is over,” and it’s made pretty clear that there is no intention to further update my commission.

     

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    I write back with my reply. After which, Mo makes a “beware on commissioner” making several false and misleading claims, including that I approved the sketch for the original full body commission (addressed in next section). I have been blocked by the artist, and no attempt to make these stickers usable or correct the fingers on the one sloppily done one seems likely.

     

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    Mo’s “Beware on Commissioner” and Counterpoints:

    Mo made a beware on me, which was misleading and inaccurate, and even contained an outright lie. They also posted excerpts of our communications out of chronological order, making it even more confusing. Please refer to the Long Version section to review transcripts for proof of any claims I make.

     

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    They claim I approved the sketch before requesting a refund. If you look at the transcript above, you can see I never even saw the sketch until after I asked the refund, and I certainly never approved anything.

    They themselves state they completed the sticker and got approval without running the lines past me. Blatantly outside of their TOS. They claim I asked for changes after the stickers were completed, but I had no choice since they went from very rough sketches to completed with no input from me in between. Remember they said to me that their sketches were “very rough”? How was I supposed to know from a Very Rough sketch how it would look completed? I asked for fairly minor changes, and I would have requested them at the line phase had I been given the chance (if the lines were the applicable phase). At no point did they inform me that these were difficult changes.

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    They claim I was impolite in my messages. The last two, yeah, I got "impolite". But I feel that most of my feedback was very polite, and at no point did Tabby say I was rude.

    Here they state their hiatus was due to an injury, contradicting their earlier claim that it was a family issue.

    They state they’re not comfortable with me wanting things done “while can force a refund.” But why should I be comfortable commissioning if I have no protection? They have $125 of my money. I have… what, a hope that I’ll eventually get my art???

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    I asked for a drop shadow before the pack was sent to me. I was direct with my request, but I wouldn’t call it a demand. I was not told there would be no drop shadow, and the only example of Mo’s stickers contained one, so I’d say, yet again, I was misled.

    They stated their beware “is not an attack” but then send it out to their followers with inaccurate information mischaracterizing the entire transaction to 10x the followers I have. Not sure what else I’d call that.

    I also never used the phrase “force a refund.” It’s odd that my hope to have my artwork completed in 180 days while I still had some reassurance that I had a way to get either the commission or my money back is something that made a professional artist uncomfortable.

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    I didn’t ask for “one edit per sticker.” I maybe asked for four total? There was an entire sheet that I loved and thought was great and didn't ask for a single change on, and others I was willing to accept as-is even though they weren’t quite what I wanted.

    Regarding the following screenshot, their claim that that is how they responded when I asked about the break is a lie as well. That was a response to me asking about the drop shadows and edit for the fingers.

    image.thumb.png.9915a06d8cf046654631b0aa971dfc92.png

    While I absolutely could extract the stickers back to PNG and edit them from Telegram, I’m not going to. Frankly this whole hideous deal has left me with a very expensive pile of stickers that I really don’t know to do with. I don’t enjoy looking at them, even though intellectually I know most of them are really cute. I don’t want to use them. Basically, Mo technically fulfilled the letter of my commission with enough ambiguity to say they did what was promised.

    The commissioner beware was deleted when I posted a link to my version of events. However, Mo made no effort to correct the misinformation in the beware and has claimed I have been directly harassing them and continuing to cause them problems, and I am therefore still getting their followers turning up on my twitter to harass me.

    TOS Issues/Other Info and Proof:

    Proof they say that refunds are available at any time with no stipulation requiring justification. (And remember, at no point did I demand a full refund.)

    0NWq70X97uWAeJyzuxcnaE_TEOzXUmfECStFdhZWJ2T2oZaacaEP8S7apWgsspCKhBRrLT1ilDSxOzUAFVp3f_U7dN265mr1bzGMZb35tf_n9Izkpa-xu21lw1af_c6qTAx6HRi0

    Proof they claim there’s a line phase of approval. Which I never got.

    N3q2COkElybVL5_44NNb7lK7KCYegKrfT8rGCgqDHYrRWKfjNG3mQp4uIMxv7H535QFMzo6bPvCeOAeVWvLM5h8tg3EoISyltv-NUebdtb3LK-YtBaO9Boe1seGz-2OvQaQXy2Co

    Trello card showing the lack of a line phase:

    BLF35nzE0Fjx2-T_xgYtnrvcQo0iJYGCT33satfHwc4_O11OfvvYCzQ-GqnzRjaOIjPQS0O26Uqw_thQ0APJo6uhyiM9Om4iynUyMhFY1cE7-eDIIOS3ov3NMk5icAf1r8_SNmIS0U7McQamuaUf0Wxvja8WVjGJVKIY1huiQh9EphApoy6sTtgmSo4Y0lEri-5aQ3pyCvJSCOjGBgsmHxvcfJcZSfLGZm-_ikDDYSkrfubL97f-TJiED_N8zme-SOZvxpveAIWS4_fwLBDY9pH-XUh-5iwHGhkKvDki_ovG_Qb1R2GusEnWVc3QATRAXW5XEoFWAA0OUerOUVkYrIOap0UGOmnLCQit1V4zA5N63jNlO8Yw3646MTsMb6wUe1JG_vTzE4fGUx7wFGqJRiLa

    UPDATE 11/27/2019
    In response to Mo’s beware, I posted a link to this beware and asked that people consider my side of the story, since there was inaccurate information in the thread. Mo subsequently deleted the first tweet in the thread, more or less hiding my reply as well. However, the rest of the tweets were still on their timeline, so I used my alternate account to post links to each of the tweets with incorrect information in hopes that I wouldn’t be silenced again. Mo subsequently deleted all but that last couple of tweets.

    After this, Mo made several posts claiming that it was “harassment” and that my partner (who had engaged them to refute misinformation as well) was also harassing them. At this point, I was understandably annoyed and furious over the whole thing and how I was being portrayed, so I posted the following.

    7ltQZqBjmclKv96bthaUKJSCYxvSat4GWYnkfPhF49VjNMTSV34-Tt3cwgif5UKCA0Uaa-Z9Blxt8KyIMFXdwIC_CQuN9dj9XuvzmfcSfXI0FF16UQks86oKFwfhDM1g8H2GlMIU

    In response to this vaguetweet, Mo decided to release the stickers for public use and refund me (minus about $5 because they sent it as Goods and Services instead of refunding the original transaction). While I suppose I’m glad for the refund, I am of course concerned that they sent it G&S as a separate transaction, meaning they could chargeback at any point in the next 180 days.

    In consideration of the fact that the refund can still be revoked, and the possibility that other folks may have similar experiences, I will not be removing this beware. Mo continues to make claims of harassment and spread disinformation, and has failed to appropriately address any of the concerns raised in this beware publicly or privately.



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    Wow i really hope they realize by doing all of this they have damaged their reputation over all this. glad you got your refund back at least but this is very messy indeed.

    Edited by Celestina
    Mo's pronouns are they/them

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    I have more in depth thoughts, but since I'm on my phone: as a heads up transactions cam only be refunded up to a certain period of time. The chargeback time is longer, so Mo more than likely didn't have the option to refund the original transaction. I would still be wary about chargebacks though.

    Also, users have no ability to edit or delete their own posts. As a general shout out to anyone who may want to pressure OP to remove it. They can't. 

    Edit: Mo's pronouns are they/ them.

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    I'm glad you were able to resolve this, and It's unfortunate behaviour on the artist's behalf in how they chose to act. They have shown their future clients how they may treat them, and it isn't very nice.

    Edited by washup

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    Very unprofessional and scummy to try to throw you under the bus because you wouldn't let them get away with not getting the work done.

    And while it doesn't seem rushed,  the fact they never gave you in-between WIP screams they just wanted to get it done and you out of their hair.

    You were never rude, and I can't understand for the life of me why asking for a transparent vers of the stickers was rude??? And adding an outline is in no way editing the work? What an absolutely abysmal attitude.

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    I am appalled by the behaviour. No excuse for me to ever call out someone like that and actually faking situations. Calling you rude while smiling at you while you chatted. Very odd. I didn't find you rude or anything.

    I might agree with not just editing other people's work (without consent, but you asked...), but for something like a drop shadow? I would allow that if it would be run with me in the end to look if it's still good. Same with the full res art. I don't know why they wouldn't give that out. I have to say that I also never saw sticker without either a white outline or a dropshadow, but I wouldn't call it rushed. Just... not completely finished for me. But I have to say, good that you got a refund, just keep an eye on that.

    Edited by Vashaa
    clarifying a statement

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    What can I say but "yikes!"

    This is, from toe to tip, a really concerning commission and I am genuinely so, so sorry for you, OP, that you were put through this treatment. Nobody deserves to be treated this way by someone who is accepting payment from them (or anyone in general, but in a professional setting it's extra yikes!), but I gotta just gripe about the two things that leapt out at me as the most concerning:

    1. "my tos does state that if it's been less than 6 months I can do only 75% refunds" - besides being a baldfaced lie, since no where in the TOS (of the caps provided) does this clause exist, it's also HYPER suss to me personally that they would not provide a full refund for mysteriously the same window of time as the PayPal chargeback window. Basically - you're not allowed to chargeback for a full refund while your buyer protection allows it, and only afterwards do you get a full refund, predicated entirely upon the artist operating in good faith? Really? I dunno man. Even if that was in the TOS, it'd be a crimson red flag to me.
    2. Telling you that you will be blacklisted for getting a refund. Even if they backpedalled on this, it is wild to me that they really put this threat on the table at all. I literally cannot read that entire interaction at all as anything buy bullying, coercing, and guilt-tripping you out of wanting a refund, and it's a bad look.

    I mean that whole exchange was bonechilling. Pulling up nonexistent TOS clauses, threatening you, then after you continue to respond with a great deal of patience and reasonability, "I'm sorry it came off that way" - basically a step down from "I'm sorry you felt that way" as far as I'm concerned - and deflecting their behaviour by pointing out your "hurtful" behaviour as being partially at fault for making them feel "irked". Considering Mugs has a manager, and said manager even took over the conversation later that evening, I can't fathom why it wasn't given to Tabby to handle from the beginning if Mugs knew they were tired and irritable.

    Anyway, I don't wanna make another really long comment on a beware again, ahaha. It's just so much of their behaviour was really maddening and really concerning that it's impossible to even react to it all, but just these two points especially, as business practices, are so insanely sketchy and unsettling to me I wanted to stress my discomfort at reading them.

    For OP: Again, I am so sorry you had to deal with this. You should be commended on your classiness in handling this, because even when you became short, you were never rude, and your unicorn character is very cute. Just a bit if positivity to end this on. 💛

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    They released the stickers of your character for public use? That leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth, not including everything else.

    Refunding only 75% of a commission regardless of whether work is done? If you don't have any work done, you don't get to keep any of the money. That's just common sense, and common business practice.

    Don't provide examples for a commission type if the end result isn't going to look like the example?

    You paid money for them to do something, and do it right. Guilting you, pressuring you, and in general bad business behavior will no doubt deter people in the future from commissioning this artist. And will, hopefully, make them think twice about the way they handled this transaction.

    Glad to hear it was resolved one way or the other, sorry you had to deal with this as a whole, OP.

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    Er, sorry for double posting but I can't edit my post so just to add (if the mods can edit the post, feel free to add this message to my original post rather than approving this double post) - all that being said, just to clear my own personal conscience: as poor as this artist's behaviour was, I do think spamming their twitter beware with replies to this beware constitutes as harassment. That's my personal opinion, no one is required to agree with me, but yeah, I do think maybe just QRTing the original tweet with a link to this beware then washing your hands of it is enough. It sucks they were giving an intentionally inaccurate account of events to make you look worse, but I don't think anything was gained from responding to every tweet in their thread with the exact same message except to make them feel frustrated and overwhelmed and escalate the situation emotionally.

    Their behaviour is a different issue and is still absolutely appalling. I just feel the need to say that.

    Also:

    Quote

    At this point, I was understandably annoyed and furious over the whole thing and how I was being portrayed, so I posted the following.

    Was there meant to be a twitter screencap accompanying this? Because nothing is showing up for me, so I'm not sure what this is referring to.

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    8 minutes ago, flucket said:

    Was there meant to be a twitter screencap accompanying this? Because nothing is showing up for me, so I'm not sure what this is referring to.

    Yes, it's ported in now.  OP is referring to an off site beware, and IPS didn't play nice when another mod ported the update in. 

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    Armaina already got what I was going to type out, but I will say this was a frustrating read.  Mo is obviously in the throes of a death spiral.  Where an artist needs to take on X work to make bills, but by the time the next round is due the work isn't done yet.  If they're getting frustrated by clients asking for edits let alone getting their work in a timely manner, it's only going to get worse from here.

    At this point the only way out is to raise prices to take on less work.  I guffawed at them offering 15 stickers, when it comes out to less than $10 a sticker.  No wonder they're trying to fly out work and getting frustrated when you politely ask for valid edits.

    Going to have to agree with @flucket on the twitter spam.  Mo legitimately messed up here, but responding with spam isn't a good idea.

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    I reuse ANY edits to my work, except cropping for icons, but I'd just add the shadow in, or ask if you wanted it for a fee, but then again, I'd have clear samples, not two different types.

    I do find them getting upset with the edits to the stickers a bit ridiculous because they didnt provide proper wips. But I can see being upset of asking for fingers to be redrawn and stuff, but they really should have provided proper wips.

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    I can't agree that it's "spam" if Mo deleted said tweet they answered to to make sure that nobody would see the truth. They had it coming really. You cannot spread misinformation on someone else and think that's okay. This was probably the only way to get the whole thing off Twitter.

    The entire thing was handled in such a poor way from Mo's side, my stomach turned reading it. Such unprofessional behavior from both Mo and their manager..

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    9 hours ago, theodor said:

    I do find them getting upset with the edits to the stickers a bit ridiculous because they didnt provide proper wips. But I can see being upset of asking for fingers to be redrawn and stuff, but they really should have provided proper wips.

    Since there were no wips for the lines, the customer is in the right for asking for the edit on the fingers, easy as that. As the artist it's your own fault if you do not give your customer an option to give feedback in time. Don't jump from rough sketch to finished piece and be upset when the customer asks for edits, really...

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    That refund policy is really weird and absolutely shady. They don't get to keep a partial amount on work not done. That's not how it works. Them conveniently having it align with the PayPal dispute window is really suss. 

    I also don't understand their refusal in adding the white outline and shadow? That's really easy to do and takes like five seconds using selection tools. It's pretty obvious they just wanted you out of their hair as fast as possible.

    On 11/28/2019 at 4:59 PM, flucket said:

    Telling you that you will be blacklisted for getting a refund.

    This one actually doesn't surprise me. I've had people contact me about refunds who said they were afraid to ask because they didn't want to be blacklisted (I don't blacklist over refunds). It seems to be a semi-common practice. 

    21 hours ago, flucket said:

    I do think spamming their twitter beware with replies to this beware constitutes as harassment.

    I actually agree. That was excessive and would be no different than spamming someone's FA shoutbox with the beware link. While I understand OP's frustration, they were definitely veering into harassment. 

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    15 hours ago, LorelTheBison said:

    Since there were no wips for the lines, the customer is in the right for asking for the edit on the fingers, easy as that. As the artist it's your own fault if you do not give your customer an option to give feedback in time. Don't jump from rough sketch to finished piece and be upset when the customer asks for edits, really...

    Yes, but finger shape is really more of a nitpick and not a flaw on the actual character. It wasnt phrased at all that the characters fingers were drawn wrong from the ref, just that the buyer didnt like how they were drawn. 'I dont like the way this looks" versus "this is not how it looks on my character".

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    11 hours ago, theodor said:

    Yes, but finger shape is really more of a nitpick and not a flaw on the actual character. It wasnt phrased at all that the characters fingers were drawn wrong from the ref, just that the buyer didnt like how they were drawn. 'I dont like the way this looks" versus "this is not how it looks on my character".

    That may be, yes, but still should be fixed. It's a commission. Paid work for a customer. Said paid work has to please said customer. Means that if to the customer a shape of a finger looks off, you change it - or more, in this case, give the chance to have it changed. Every artist can f*ck up some anatomy here and there (in fact most popufurs draw the worst anatomy on the entirety of FA..) and has to be open for feedback on that and ready to fix something about their work without being offended. Those fingers we are talking about are not drawn wrongly because it's "the artists style" or something alike, so they have no right to call that request rude or deny it. Nitpicks aren't something to play down; it could mean a lot to the customer. When I order a commission for myself or a friend, I am hellishly nitpicky myself because I want to like the outcome and I want it to be perfect. And if a hand is positioned weirdly, I want to be able to say that and have it fixed.

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    I believe the artist's manager needs to re-educate themselves on professional behavior as well. 

    This entire thing is goodness gracious. Sorry you went through that.

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    On 11/30/2019 at 1:01 PM, LorelTheBison said:

    That may be, yes, but still should be fixed. It's a commission. Paid work for a customer. Said paid work has to please said customer. Means that if to the customer a shape of a finger looks off, you change it - or more, in this case, give the chance to have it changed. Every artist can f*ck up some anatomy here and there (in fact most popufurs draw the worst anatomy on the entirety of FA..) and has to be open for feedback on that and ready to fix something about their work without being offended. Those fingers we are talking about are not drawn wrongly because it's "the artists style" or something alike, so they have no right to call that request rude or deny it. Nitpicks aren't something to play down; it could mean a lot to the customer. When I order a commission for myself or a friend, I am hellishly nitpicky myself because I want to like the outcome and I want it to be perfect. And if a hand is positioned weirdly, I want to be able to say that and have it fixed.

    I dunno, I disagree. A person should be aware of the artist's skill level and style before approaching them for a commission. The way the fingers/arms are drawn appear to be how they draw in general, and it's also a difficult pose to pull off with foreshortening. Even some of the most skilled artists can fuck it up (and I've had to draw similar poses and it isn't easy). Complaining/critiquing an artist's anatomy after you commissioned them does seem like nitpicking when you should have already been aware of how they draw and their level of skill going in.

    If I were expected to draw things perfectly that I don't have the skillset for and then being critiqued/nitpicked over it, that would turn me off from that client and I would refund them. Particularly because a lot of commissioners don't know what they're talking about and often ask for things that are impossible or give inappropriate/wrong critique. 

    Asking for changes to missing colors, markings, etc is one thing. But telling someone that you don't like x body part is drawn is another thing (and can be VERY vague and unhelpful anyways). 

    Edited by Bourbon

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    2 hours ago, Bourbon said:

    A person should be aware of the artist's skill level and style before approaching them for a commission.

    Yes, and with the artist's skill this should have been possible.

    2 hours ago, Bourbon said:

    The way the fingers/arms are drawn appear to be how they draw in general, and it's also a difficult pose to pull off with foreshortening.

    Sorry but... spreading fingers out isn't that hard...

    2 hours ago, Bourbon said:

    Complaining/critiquing an artist's anatomy after you commissioned them does seem like nitpicking when you should have already been aware of how they draw and their level of skill going in.

    You can critique and artist's anatomy on a commission, of course you can. After all the body part this is about (the fingers.. just the fingers), hasn't been portrayed in any "bad" way before this. So yeah, you can critique it if it seems to be less good than in the examples before.

    2 hours ago, Bourbon said:

    Particularly because a lot of commissioners don't know what they're talking about and often ask for things that are impossible or give inappropriate/wrong critique. 

    "Can the fingers [...] be spread out a bit more/made to look more wiggly?" was the commissioners request. They couldn't have been more clear and this is not impossible nor inappropriate or wrong. The pose is literally called "grabby hands" and looks more like incoming for a weird hug.

    2 hours ago, Bourbon said:

    But telling someone that you don't like x body part is drawn is another thing (and can be VERY vague and unhelpful anyways). 

    I've commissioned a sketch page from an artist before and they were used to drawing planti feet. I asked them to fix the legs and make them digi. They did. They were, in fact, happy for the chance in learning more about digileg anatomy. If something in the picture looks weird to the paying commissioner, it has to be fixed. If it's a too short leg or fingers.

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    5 hours ago, Bourbon said:

    I dunno, I disagree. A person should be aware of the artist's skill level and style before approaching them for a commission. The way the fingers/arms are drawn appear to be how they draw in general, and it's also a difficult pose to pull off with foreshortening. Even some of the most skilled artists can fuck it up (and I've had to draw similar poses and it isn't easy). Complaining/critiquing an artist's anatomy after you commissioned them does seem like nitpicking when you should have already been aware of how they draw and their level of skill going in.

    If I were expected to draw things perfectly that I don't have the skillset for and then being critiqued/nitpicked over it, that would turn me off from that client and I would refund them. Particularly because a lot of commissioners don't know what they're talking about and often ask for things that are impossible or give inappropriate/wrong critique. 

    Asking for changes to missing colors, markings, etc is one thing. But telling someone that you don't like x body part is drawn is another thing (and can be VERY vague and unhelpful anyways). 

    I feel similarly, at most adjust the fingers to be a bit conical but otherwise I'd not have requested much more. The sticker pack was way under-priced per drawing, I wouldn't have felt it appropriate to raise a fight over something so minor on just one of them.

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