Beware: Kircai

Heya folks, the artist in question here! Just here for anyone stumbling over this!

So, there's a lot wrong here, where to begin. Firstly, the commissioner did not request "a pic of [their] sona dressed as Majoras Mask link while also having been regressed with Skull kid/Majora teasing him about playing the song of time too many times." What was in the google form under the 'Commission details' section was "Majoras Mask Link!" and at the bottom in the 'Questions & Comments' section was the actual commission detail, 'messy, maybe playing the Song of Time too much,' no mention of another character. Sadly, I deleted Guba's form once I was done, as I do with everyone.

A minor point, but one that Guba has stressed repeatedly is a journal post of mine. They are mistaken, as I made no journal. I made a twitter post that is still up, and an advert was posted to FA too. This advert was deleted, as I delete most of my adverts on FA to not clutter my gallery. This is clear in the screenshot of Guba's search history on this post here. Also, while I was taking these commissions I was suspended from FA on dubious grounds and because of that I just don't like posting there anymore, hence the lack of activity.

'Piles' is a rather subjective amount of commissions, but I don't think that term fit what I was doing. In the time between 21/09/18 and 01/01/19 I mostly posted older commissions, patreon rewards, and personal pieces. I did take commissions 4 times, 2 of which I was in an airport for and were quick pay what you want sketches.  The other 2 were quick, "experimental" commissions that I used to get out of a depressive slump and improve my work so I could do my owed commissions better, and I only did about 8 or so. If you look at my work pre-21/09/18 and Guba's "half-assed" finished commission there is a quality improvement.

Guba never once reached out, instead in November they posted a passive-aggressive tweet listing 'artist who owe me art'. I hope people understand that's not reaching out, or communicating. I did end up rushing because of that post, and  got about 2/3rds through the commission the next day before I noticed they put the commission detail in the wrong spot. You can't edit google forms, and they're not the first one to make a similar mistake, so I didn't say anything. Getting that far in a commission is a bummer, and on top of personal issues at the time, I didn't want to touch it for a few days. That few days clearly turned into a lot longer.

I did honestly feel terrible about how long it had taken, and I sketched out a new image at the end of December when I was finally back home and mostly out of my depressive slump. I was grateful for what I thought was patience, and was going to not only make the new one but finish the older wrong one as a thank you. 

Then Guba made a callout post, saying that the commission was "like 6 months" old, and  that the form had "vanished." I don't think it's unreasonable to think someone should at least try to reach out before doing a callout. And the reason why Guba didn't is because I said I wasn't interested in chatting with him back in 2016 when he messaged me on my personal telegram which was not posted publicly. 

A few points on the twitter DMs above. The owing him nothing part is very clearly about any "next time." The 'sad-puppy' is because of that pathetic insincere apology. I am pretty clearly angry in those messages, and I think rightfully so. I was warned in the past about this guy by a few folks and I didn't listen. And, there should be a long message from Guba in between the last two imgur links that they didn't show. 

I'm not absolving myself of blame. I was late on a commission and that's a shit thing to do. I've been late on a whole bunch of folks, and I'm sorry that I couldn't do them for weeks. After the first few weeks someone wanted a refund and I it was fine, I understood why they wanted one. I also suck at communicating myself, I'm absolutely terrified to message folk when I'm late on art.

But Guba's unreasonable, and desperately wants to be a victim when they're not.

5 minutes ago, Celestina said:

Howdy!

 

The main crux of this post is that the client claims what he wanted was not delivered to him.  Do you have what he did send you for his prompt? 

No, regrettably, as I say above I delete them after completion so I'm never saving anyone's personal details. That said, the client never gives anything in way of support either.

2 hours ago, kircai said:

No, regrettably, as I say above I delete them after completion so I'm never saving anyone's personal details. That said, the client never gives anything in way of support either.

It sucks you don't have the form, so it's a bit he said she said. 

Most artist charge extra for multiple characters, do you as well? It's not fully proof, but if you can show that he paid the same amount as a 1 character commission, it might help to show that you weren't commissioned to do more then one, or at least show some miscommunication happened and that the client did actually receive what he paid for, even if it sucks it's not what was expected. 

42 minutes ago, sbneko said:

It sucks you don't have the form, so it's a bit he said she said. 

Most artist charge extra for multiple characters, do you as well? It's not fully proof, but if you can show that he paid the same amount as a 1 character commission, it might help to show that you weren't commissioned to do more then one, or at least show some miscommunication happened and that the client did actually receive what he paid for, even if it sucks it's not what was expected. 

Oh, hey Strawberry!

That's a good idea! Attached below is proof of the client's payment for $35, (personal info censored) as well as the google form with the stated prices. And yeah, this does ultimately boil down to "I said X! No, you said Y! Well, you're rude! No, you're rude!" petty argument at this point. ^.^'

7 hours ago, kircai said:

Heya folks, the artist in question here! Just here for anyone stumbling over this!

 

So, there's a lot wrong here, where to begin. Firstly, the commissioner did not request "a pic of [their] sona dressed as Majoras Mask link while also having been regressed with Skull kid/Majora teasing him about playing the song of time too many times." What was in the google form under the 'Commission details' section was "Majoras Mask Link!" and at the bottom in the 'Questions & Comments' section was the actual commission detail, 'messy, maybe playing the Song of Time too much,' no mention of another character. Sadly, I deleted Guba's form once I was done, as I do with everyone.

 

A minor point, but one that Guba has stressed repeatedly is a journal post of mine. They are mistaken, as I made no journal. I made a twitter post that is still up, and an advert was posted to FA too. This advert was deleted, as I delete most of my adverts on FA to not clutter my gallery. This is clear in the screenshot of Guba's search history on this post here. Also, while I was taking these commissions I was suspended from FA on dubious grounds and because of that I just don't like posting there anymore, hence the lack of activity.

 

'Piles' is a rather subjective amount of commissions, but I don't think that term fit what I was doing. In the time between 21/09/18 and 01/01/19 I mostly posted older commissions, patreon rewards, and personal pieces. I did take commissions 4 times, 2 of which I was in an airport for and were quick pay what you want sketches.  The other 2 were quick, "experimental" commissions that I used to get out of a depressive slump and improve my work so I could do my owed commissions better, and I only did about 8 or so. If you look at my work pre-21/09/18 and Guba's "half-assed" finished commission there is a quality improvement.

 

Guba never once reached out, instead in November they posted a passive-aggressive tweet listing 'artist who owe me art'. I hope people understand that's not reaching out, or communicating. I did end up rushing because of that post, and  got about 2/3rds through the commission the next day before I noticed they put the commission detail in the wrong spot. You can't edit google forms, and they're not the first one to make a similar mistake, so I didn't say anything. Getting that far in a commission is a bummer, and on top of personal issues at the time, I didn't want to touch it for a few days. That few days clearly turned into a lot longer.

 

I did honestly feel terrible about how long it had taken, and I sketched out a new image at the end of December when I was finally back home and mostly out of my depressive slump. I was grateful for what I thought was patience, and was going to not only make the new one but finish the older wrong one as a thank you. 

 

Then Guba made a callout post, saying that the commission was "like 6 months" old, and  that the form had "vanished." I don't think it's unreasonable to think someone should at least try to reach out before doing a callout. And the reason why Guba didn't is because I said I wasn't interested in chatting with him back in 2016 when he messaged me on my personal telegram which was not posted publicly. 

 

A few points on the twitter DMs above. The owing him nothing part is very clearly about any "next time." The 'sad-puppy' is because of that pathetic insincere apology. I am pretty clearly angry in those messages, and I think rightfully so. I was warned in the past about this guy by a few folks and I didn't listen. And, there should be a long message from Guba in between the last two imgur links that they didn't show. 

 

I'm not absolving myself of blame. I was late on a commission and that's a shit thing to do. I've been late on a whole bunch of folks, and I'm sorry that I couldn't do them for weeks. After the first few weeks someone wanted a refund and I it was fine, I understood why they wanted one. I also suck at communicating myself, I'm absolutely terrified to message folk when I'm late on art.

 

But Guba's unreasonable, and desperately wants to be a victim when they're not.

Let me clarify some things, i didnt 'reach out' because the last attempt to talk to you, you told me NOT to bug you and stated you didnt even have a reason.

Next, a tweet is a public message, one for everyone to see, i tweeted at you BECAUSE of how you treated me before.

Its very clear based on this very response where you literally state outright you based your opinion on what OTHERS said about me that you were unwilling to listen regardless of what i said, and by the way, I did apologize for making you feel rushed, YOU refused to accept it, and those tweets you are referencing came AFTER you refused to accept the apology and after you blocked me AND do not name you specifically, in fact outside of naming you as one of 3 artists who owed me art your name was never mentioned at all.

I am not happy about this situation, but this behavior is just unacceptable in my opinion, i made every attempt to diffuse the situation peacefully, but you decided to just get mad at me and ignore the facts.

7 hours ago, kircai said:

No, regrettably, as I say above I delete them after completion so I'm never saving anyone's personal details. That said, the client never gives anything in way of support either.

You never gave any form of progress updates, or even a sketch to approve, how could i have 'offered support' regarding the pics?  You also blocked me before i even had a chance to view the pic as i was at work on my phone during the entire exchange.

9 hours ago, kircai said:

No, regrettably, as I say above I delete them after completion so I'm never saving anyone's personal details. That said, the client never gives anything in way of support either.

If you're working off a Google Form, the associated Sheet has a version history which you can use to find deleted/changed data.

In regards to the commission, it's not solely the commissioner's responsibility to reach out to an artist regarding a commission. The artist should be keeping open lines of communication, especially if there are issues and delays. Yes, three months isn't a heinous amount of time to wait on art, but if a commissioner says "No rush" in a conversation, that's not blanket permission to deprioritize their work. The excuse of "You told me 'no rush'!" is a hollow one, and putting all of the blame on the commissioner for why this turned out wrong, when you didn't contact them regarding an issue you noticed that caused a delay, is not the way to go about things.

5 hours ago, Ysera said:

If you're working off a Google Form, the associated Sheet has a version history which you can use to find deleted/changed data.

In regards to the commission, it's not solely the commissioner's responsibility to reach out to an artist regarding a commission. The artist should be keeping open lines of communication, especially if there are issues and delays. Yes, three months isn't a heinous amount of time to wait on art, but if a commissioner says "No rush" in a conversation, that's not blanket permission to deprioritize their work. The excuse of "You told me 'no rush'!" is a hollow one, and putting all of the blame on the commissioner for why this turned out wrong, when you didn't contact them regarding an issue you noticed that caused a delay, is not the way to go about things.

Seems it only archives previous versions after the first time you use that feature, and it's a feature I didn't even know existed until now.

And yes, I agree with you, as I say at the end of my initial post. But, I did not use 'no rush' as an excuse for anything, just to point out the lack of communication on the client's part. It is unreasonable to make misleading subtweets and callout post without once attempting to speak to the artist.

Also, unless a client specifically asks for a WIP/sketch for approval I'll seldom send them out, and that's been the norm for 3 years now. This client did not ask for one. In that time I have taken around 600 commissions, and this client is the only one that's expressed this kind of dissatisfaction. 

But yeah, I took far too long on this commission and I didn't communicate. At the end of the day though, service was rendered.

9 hours ago, Ysera said:

In regards to the commission, it's not solely the commissioner's responsibility to reach out to an artist regarding a commission. The artist should be keeping open lines of communication, especially if there are issues and delays. Yes, three months isn't a heinous amount of time to wait on art, but if a commissioner says "No rush" in a conversation, that's not blanket permission to deprioritize their work. The excuse of "You told me 'no rush'!" is a hollow one, and putting all of the blame on the commissioner for why this turned out wrong, when you didn't contact them regarding an issue you noticed that caused a delay, is not the way to go about things.

I tell the artists I commission that they don't need to rush as well. Though with that I mean "You don't have to hurry, no need to dedicate all your free time just to my commission and I'm fine with waiting", and not "Feel free to put my commission on the shelf until you feel like it and do other ones instead". Though I would ask nicely first why my commission was pushed back.

But good to know that "no rush" can also be interpreted differently.

As I see it here, and if both sides are telling the truth, then both haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, since both were pretty aggressive at times. Of couse, overall it's a communication issue, but nevertheless, the heated conversations don't make me confident in either commissioning the artist, or receiving one from the client (If I would be an artist myself).

I could be interpreting this wrong, but it seems to me that the main crux of the issue was the last time they spoke (in 2016?) when the artist (kircai) told guba not to talk to them.

What sounds like what happened is that guba wanted to be friends, and when Kircai denied that, guba took it as the inability to talk to the artist entirely. This sounds like confusion on the difference between a personal and a professional relationship.

This seems to be a big problem in the fandom (or at least private art commissions in general). Artists want to seem nice and friendly for customer service, which confuses customers into thinking they're friends with the artist, so on and so forth until the difference between business transaction and personal communication becomes null.

Of course I could be wrong on this since we don't have the original messages (nor am I asking for them). Just seems like an observation; Guba didn't feel comfortable asking Kircai for updates because Kircai lashed out last time (when Kircai felt their personal boundaries were crossed).

Something both sides need to work on communicating effectively. The difference between personal and professional relationships is also something that the fandom as a whole needs to be more educated about in general, unfortunately.

If guba had asked for updates on the commission using the correct channels, it's likely this whole transaction would've gone much differently.
It's unfortunate that this misunderstanding occurred.

Just want to point out that kircai has completely scrapped the entire commission and posted this to twitter:

https://twitter.com/Kircai_Art/status/1081361530753564672

" Commissioner called their commission that I was damn proud of 'half-assed,' so screw 'em! "  That is clearly in contradiction to what has been said in this very thread, and he has used the original commission to make his own art now.

19 minutes ago, gubaguy said:

Just want to point out that kircai has completely scrapped the entire commission and posted this to twitter:

https://twitter.com/Kircai_Art/status/1081361530753564672

" Commissioner called their commission that I was damn proud of 'half-assed,' so screw 'em! "  That is clearly in contradiction to what has been said in this very thread, and he has used the original commission to make his own art now.

Also, i triple checked jsut to be sure, i never called the art half-assed, i said the final pic didn't represent what was commissioned.

12 hours ago, Bornes said:

I could be interpreting this wrong, but it seems to me that the main crux of the issue was the last time they spoke (in 2016?) when the artist (kircai) told guba not to talk to them.

What sounds like what happened is that guba wanted to be friends, and when Kircai denied that, guba took it as the inability to talk to the artist entirely. This sounds like confusion on the difference between a personal and a professional relationship.

This seems to be a big problem in the fandom (or at least private art commissions in general). Artists want to seem nice and friendly for customer service, which confuses customers into thinking they're friends with the artist, so on and so forth until the difference between business transaction and personal communication becomes null.

Of course I could be wrong on this since we don't have the original messages (nor am I asking for them). Just seems like an observation; Guba didn't feel comfortable asking Kircai for updates because Kircai lashed out last time (when Kircai felt their personal boundaries were crossed).

Something both sides need to work on communicating effectively. The difference between personal and professional relationships is also something that the fandom as a whole needs to be more educated about in general, unfortunately.

If guba had asked for updates on the commission using the correct channels, it's likely this whole transaction would've gone much differently.
It's unfortunate that this misunderstanding occurred.

So, probably my last post on this.

Thank you Bornes, I think that does hit the germ of this issue. No reason for details, but yes, I felt a line had been crossed and was uncomfortable with that back in '16.

To reiterate one last time, I'm at fault for being so late and not communicating. I make art to hopefully make folks' day better, and going silent for a while, irregardless of personal issues, is a dick move, and I am sorry for that. Also, it seems like this site only recently started back up again, so I'm also sorry the first major post was a bit of a petty situation. That said, I haven't had a bad time here and hope this site goes well!

The commission was not scrapped as you can see by the still functional dropbox link, which will stay up for my usual 3 - 6 months. And attached below is the client calling my work "half-assed." I ain't gonna let something like that go over on an image I'm still proud of.

Thank y'all, have a great day!

I attempted to have a civil conversation to resolve this, Kircai decided to throw around more accusations, accused me of wanting to be friends so he would draw me free porn, then he sent an unprompted refund and blocked me, his final message being  "I am literally a fetish porn artist dude."

I guess its over now?  im not happy about any of this honestly. The artist clearly didnt want to resolve this in any meaningful way, and if i had wanted a refund i would have asked. This feels like a hollow attempt to make me leave him alone.

I honestly wouldn't do business with either of you two. You both have shown unproffessional, even a tad aggressive behavior towards eachother. I also couldn't imagine doing business with a person who would post or vent about me on social media, which, you both have done to each other as well, even if those weren't direct callouts.

No thanks.

I dont think this is at all resolved, becuase after i told Kircai that i did NOT want a refund, but everyone was telling me to get one (and he himself said both in private and in this very thread i could ask for one at any time), so after i said that everyone was telling me to get a refund he jsut sent one, and has now posted this:

I 'threatened' a chargeback?  I told out outright i DIDNT WANT A REFUND, and then you follow this up with:

You literally sent the money back for the SOLE PURPOSE of playing victim, after i told you I DID NOT WANT A REFUND.