Bornes

@Celestina Many forums have a rant/vent thread in off-site discussion.
Would it be admissible to have such a thread to contain all posts with vents/rants in in the general chat forum?

Did you give a date you expected the refund by? If so and they passed it, just post the beware now.

If you didn't give a date and you still have maybe a LITTLE hope they'll still give the refund or art, you can write them another email. Otherwise, just post the beware now.

Might be worth a beware or a caution if you feel up to it.
This seems highly situational and without the messages and the gallery it's really hard to tell if anyone is really in the wrong here
(don't post those things in this forum, either. Just post them with the beware or caution, if you choose to submit one)

4 hours ago, CheeseCameo said:

I guess my question is now how do I go about this? I wish to remain on good terms with them, as I feel associating the suit with someone I no longer get along with will ruin it for me, but I also just want this back and fourth of nothing getting done to end. I just want the suit.

I'd recommend an ultimatum where you request them to send what they have, not bother with the art or the feet if they haven't been started yet, and possibly a small refund since you don't want those things made.
That will get you what exists as soon as possible while simultaneously making it much harder for your friend to delay shipping the suit.

Location releases are required when you receive money in some way that would have not been possible without that location. They are also required when the location is the focus of something that will be publicly released (e.g. public access television, news, movies, etc).

Location releases are regularly skirted around and not sought after though. I am not a lawyer but I think in your case you should technically seek one (because of the intended after-product involving money) HOWEVER since it is only for personal use and you are not a professional photographer - nobody will care.

Owners want to be paid mostly based on the fact that their location is being used for profit, and secondarily if the location is being used to advance some agenda so they can at least have forewarning (and the ability to refuse). While the artist is technically making money off the location, you, who took the picture, are not, and it's being used for personal use only, so I'd say you're fine.

Source: 12 year old degree in digital video production, so my facts may be outdated.

Yeah, definitely stop tipping. What has she even done to warrant more tips?

Otherwise, sounds like you may be hitting ultimatum territory.

19 hours ago, Celestina said:

We had a very brave individual step up and volunteer to moderate a General forum.

BUT WHAT ARE THE RULES FOR WHICH I MODERATE?

@Alex Wright @Alkraas Highlight all the text and hold ctrl while right clicking. That is the extra context menu. =]

@Moogle congrats!

@Alkraas it sounds like they're paying a price for the slot... Perhaps the artist doesn't open for slots very often or is under such heavy demand that slots are taken within seconds/minutes.

I'm with the others... I'd never participate in it personally but if the artist is such high demand that clients are willing to pay that, good for them.

Sounds good! Just remember if you don't actually get the files by the date you originally stated (31 Jan), to continue through with the partial refund inquiry.
But try to assume the best of the artist!

Good luck!

Yes, that looks good. Also yes, you should email that to the artist.
@Moogle

Alright awesome.
So write the ultimatum quoting this, and ask for those things or a partial refund. Toss out a number for the refund (aim higher than you actually want). See if the artist will deliver what is due, refund you, or haggle on the refund.

Didn't you not realize they were going to email you the hi-res in the first place? If it's not something I explicitly paid for, I'd probably just let it go, honestly.

But this is something you'd likely have to hunt through their Terms of Service (TOS) for. Many artists state what resolutions they work in, or at least that there is a "higher" one given over email. If your artist's TOS or commission info notes that anywhere, you can bring it up with them and ask that they provide the higher quality image to you via email as they state they do in their TOS.

@Moogle Luckily my guide on ultimatums was published today and is exactly for this purpose!

The example situation given is very very similar to your current situation, so it should not need to be edited too much to fit your needs!

A TOS written like that is a lack of professionalism and I would only commission them if they were (a) dirt cheap and (b) I was willing to be ok with possibly never getting the commission.

It's a gamble. I've done it before and both won and lost.
Ultimately if you use paypal and the transaction takes place within the refund window, you can always get your money back no matter what the artist says. But a lot of times it's not worth the stress or the effort.

 

I think it depends on what your turnaround time is, which no one else has mentioned.

@Alkraas I can't reveal too much or else this won't be anonymous anymore, but they're aware of the edits, the main one was done with permission for that specific project, so I would assume that similar edits would be covered without asking for permission first.

As for a price, yeah, that's.. Neither of us know what price to offer. They don't ever charge for this type of work, even though this type of work could be charged for (if that makes sense).
Also their messages seem like they are uncomfortable with the idea of me paying for this agreement without some sort of contract stipulating the agreement. But neither of us know where to begin on writing such an agreement. So, I'm at a loss...

I am willing to write it myself and bring it to them again, but I need some guidance on what the contract/agreement should say.

I know that typically, distribution rights for art are expensive (Past AB posts on LJ had said something like triple what they'd charge for that type of commission at least), but given I'm not making money off the distribution (theoretically anyway), and they also don't ever charge for their work, I'm stuck at ground zero again.

I'm not rushing to give this person tons of money (or cheat them!) but I do want to clear my conscience.

Not sure if this would go here or in pricing talks, so I apologize in advance.

Basically, I have a piece of work done for free by someone. This work has become ubiquitous for a psuedo-business entity (which makes no profit, but also is not a registered business or non profit). I thought the right thing to do at this point would be to contact the creator and purchase the distribution rights for the work.

Mainly, I just don't want to feel bad not crediting them any time I use the work.

So I contacted them and stated precisely this, that the piece of work was pretty much everywhere now, and while I didn't want to credit them any time I posted it, I also didn't forsee me making any money from using said work.

They came back and said they had absolutely no idea how to deal with this as they have no experience with purchasing copyright or distribution rights and wouldn't know where to begin. I said the same thing but I felt it would be good to compensate them somehow. They said (paraphrased) "Let's just make an agreement that you can use my work without credit as long as you don't pretend you did the work yourself."

I haven't contacted them again because I'm unsure of how to proceed from here.
I don't want to claim I did the work, but I'm manipulating this work often and it pretty much represents this entity. Right now a "gentleman's agreement" (for lack of better wording) is fine, but I have a fear that this may become a big issue later, especially if I ever get around to registering this entity officially.

Any ideas or suggestions?
Thank you.

You could've worded some things a little better, but overall yes, you did the right thing.
And when I say "worded things better" I don't mean that you were rude, just that it left a bit of wiggle room. It's too late now, but in the future, you should put all of the following in your ultimatums:
- the [exact] date you sent this ultimatum
- the date you commissioned them, and what you commissioned them for
- the price you paid
- the time they said the commission would be done by (if applicable)
- an exact date at least 7 days in the future
- the actual ultimatum (do X or I do Y).

Quick example (made up with inspiration from your screencaps):

Hi Artist,
I commissioned you on 5 October 2018 for a colored headshot for 5 USD. You said the expected turnaround for completion was about a month. As of [today's date], I have only received a WIP sketch. At this point, if I don't receive the completed colored headshot by [exact date 2 weeks in the future], I will be opening a paypal claim for a refund. Alternatively, I'm willing to accept a refund now if you no longer wish to complete the commission.
Thank you,
Commissioner

Here's what a message like this (ideally sent over email) does:
- Lets the artist know you're incredibly serious about this situation
- Gives the artist everything they need to know about your commission in one message (helps if the artist is unorganized)
- That same information is all in one message for your paypal claim - less evidence to gather if you end up sending this in to paypal (or court, if your situation calls for it). Makes everyone's jobs easier.
- Gives a rigid deadline for the call to action. Precise dates are harder to wiggle their way out of to get more time from you. Also, again, very helpful for your paypal case should it come to that.
- Said rigid deadline is ALSO for you! If you don't hear anything by the deadline, the next day you better be filing that paypal claim. If you don't back up your threats, what use was the ultimatum to begin with?


Overall, it sounds like you're on the right track. The onus is now on the artist. You can choose to give them more time if you feel whatever excuse they give is believable/worthy, but you are not an interest-free loan for artists, you're a customer of a business and a business that doesn't deliver its goods should not remain in business.

Yes it's only 5 bucks, but it's really up to you how you want to handle this. You hold all the cards until the claim window for paypal expires.

18 hours ago, roswell said:

Ultimately, I'm wondering if there's any good way to tell my friend, "You owe me a lot of money's worth of art, and I don't think it's my job to track down all of what you owe me, and I'm feeling pretty gross about all of this"? Or if there is a reasonable way to approach this situation at all? I'm curious what any of you would have about what you'd do in this situation.

You are correct that it is not your responsibility to do this and your feelings on not wanting to do it are totally valid.
However, consider your current position.

You're out of the refund window for paypal. You can't get the money you spent back.
You don't even know (presumably) exactly what commissions you're owed at the moment, so even if you were able to get a refund from your friend (you already said they probably couldn't afford it), you'd still need to dig up what the commissions were to prove how much they owe you for said refund.

"But Bornes, they should be doing that!"

Yeah, they should. But the fact that they came to you at all means they remembered you existed, and that they probably don't have the records themselves. If you also do not have the records, then there might be a conversation to be had there, but it sounds like you keep pretty good records and this issue may not be a huge time investment on your part.

I hate to say this, but you're actually very lucky in this situation. You have no power anymore. And the artist WANTS to right their wrongs (or so it appears). Many artists in your friend's situation just give up and wash their hands of the info, leaving people like you with no refund and no art.

Consider your position, and consider whether you value the art or "putting the artist in their place" more.

And remember, you can always have the conversation with the artist at a later date, after you have the owed art in your hands.

If I were in your position, I'd be afraid that saying anything other than "thanks, here's the info" would result in them dropping the owed art into a black hole, never to be seen or heard from again.
I could be wrong, of course. You say they are your friend, so you should be able to hopefully assess what kind of situation you're actually in, here.

I wish you the best of luck.

edit: Alternatively, you could file in small claims court for the refund, but that's really all the power you have in this situation (and is hard to use if you aren't geographically close to the artist), and it still involves you looking for the records. And if the artist really doesn't have the money to refund you, you still wouldn't get it.

Doesn't this fall under "client beware" ?