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  • Beware: Trixx/ lovelockdownart

    paintedbees

    By paintedbees

      • Who: Lovelockdownart/Trixx
      Where: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/lovelockdownart/
      When: 03/14/2019
      What: Commission

      Resolved
    Eden
    Message added by Eden

    03.05.20:  It was reported to us that Trixx had chargebacked the full amount.  Trixx has provided proof that the amount was $530 because her bank didn't allow for partial chargebacks, thus two whole transactions had to be chargebacked on.  However, $530 is more than the $480, which is the half that is requested back.

    Currently we are still communicating with Trixx.  Please check back later for more updates.

    Update 1:  Caero has responded with information regarding the chargeback here.

    Given the information provided by both Trixx and Caero align, we've decided to keep this as an open beware.  For both clients and artists collaborations are considered one entity.  Due to the inability to do a partial chargeback, the difference between $530 and $480 is owed to Caero for the matter of the chargebacks to be resolved.

    All other circumstances surrounding the chargebacks we leave others to create their own opinions on the matter.

    (this article includes screencaps featuring conversation involving a musical artist and collaborative partner, Caero, who granted me permission to include screenshots featuring his dialogue:
    proof 1
    proof 2)

    --
    In march, I hosted an auction in collaboration with a musician where the winner would receive a custom theme song for their character and I would make an illustration of the character using the music as my inspiration.
    48cec9ad5418dfc3359fc1cd771954b31d27d1e6

    The winning bid was 960 usd (to be split 480 for each of us.) 

    c803f91ae6f3ebdad5467d091a2908cf42e08c5a

    e15682c6606907c2720ef462b3aec4d39f10a4bd


    The musician sent an invoice and on July 3rd 2019 the invoice was fully paid. The musician delivered my half of the payment without incident.

    b15ff6f62df72b1472447165ebdb3806c754f6c1


    The musician proceeded to experience some life turbulence and his correspondence with both me and the client suffered as a result. Trixx requested an update on how things were going with him and he responded. 

    54e1034f5551d3e3a0f3fa59f0d0c63eb1b65161


    Feeling a little antsy as some more time passed after this, I contacted the musician and offered the idea to draw the illustration first. He assured me that he would have something to show soon.09b6ed1c481c720678343f6dcf5ccb0ef1faf57e


    I unfortunately do not have screencaps for this part but he was true to his word and submitted a musical sketch, which Trixx approved. I then produced an illustration sketch based on what he provided. She approved the sketch, and requested a background that was a “kingdom, city devastation through the battlefield.”

    Following this, the musician fell out of contact again, and once again, Trixx inquired for an update, and received no response after two days. At which point, I apologized for her inability to get in contact with the musician and told her that I would reach out to him.
    Here’s the conversation I had with the musician.
    c457b568c8baa2651de1eccf7820bdfbdcca8a16

    Following this conversation, I followed up with Trixx, letting her know that I understood the musician had spoken to her, adding that I would hop on ahead and complete her illustration within the week, providing updates each day until the work was complete.
    The following is what transpired:

    3eccc07d4f6f1313b8b20b51055e51dc7b781e74

    c4a15b00bba15325d7967b4ef1186bfdf5d47e55

    90d6f84b073bb6ddbf14a38794019e78244a02c5

    9e5c163c7156128bebd8260f2a906be44a78ac09

    bcc7704045edad2a58fb431e87e2b0e2fccbcac1

    1c3322d0bfdf5d9e9106911d381399def63b4771

    1be451e60eac7b1675c4278e51d9ff764bbdc8ba

    0db1e85d50e46d430c315a04a829a2b9c46f9402

    fe20889f83576e4a0cd89100a25c2a0e5dc75bd1

    56e67451c71fe59e434cad968efb6fbaedb4af9d

    921ab3ecb250a7e56d2071cd6543b7d8e56ebc31

    28f5f04ee06a4004cb85ab70c2d7eb742237e3ce

    ada0b01b3cd1f1c2b4ccdff53d252566e72356d1

    d5a779adcb64a8d241e48db47ca83d33a0145464

    This is the link to the previously completed collaborative auction linked to in the screencaps above: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/27946332/
    This is the link to Trixx’s completed illustration: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jd7o726jjdq7yi4/trixx.png?dl=0
    (Version without the radial blur: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qdtk31qyfksez9u/trixx_2.png?dl=0

    The conversation continued down this trajectory, eventually leading to a very confusing moment where Trixx began linking me to examples of work that were not provided as examples in the auction description, eventually going as far as to accuse me of editing the auction details (effectively gaslighting her). She dropped that particular topic as soon as she realized that she had been looking at the details and pulling up examples provided in the description of an entirely different auction than the one she had bid on.
    4ceea452a3d4c4dc55f70bd059eb53077abc1689

    ee9bc2951bf93f02b878cd2f591f46433e6fd195

    Eventually, I had considered completely redoing the background and most of the character for an additional charge (which she had warned me not to make too steep, on the premise that she has already paid for the illustration). I offered to redo things on the condition of her trust that I was putting forth my best effort for her. She voiced her lack of confidence, and I quickly determined that the safest course of action was to encourage her to take a partial refund.
    05f1561f8756912a42e51ae0ccebb5010667eaa1

    acb57fefdd909600e3b4b8d7f5906ad383ffad23

    I had her invoice me for the partial refund, and promptly paid that invoice
    6bc009daff91d73945b2f13eb39f8dbdb029f9f8

    e6d232e5c751bd895e6d58db4d37380298593972

    I left the group conversation, and she sent me one last personal DM
    0af5163bff8d52e22b5a1550dac8058dcf64b060

    Not wanting to continue the conversation with respect to my own time and emotional resources, I blocked her on discord following that last message I sent.

    The musician told me that he was going to issue her a full $480 refund.c074f9e695191334faba67e6758856555b03f564


    I sincerely believe that Trixx is not a wholly unreasonable person, and that the responses from her as seen in these screencaps were shaped largely by the wait time and lapses in correspondence. I tried my best to juggle the issues surrounding the musician and the needs of the client, but in the end, the variables failed to line up in a manner that was conducive to good business and a happy customer. This is my very first experience with both a situation and a client like this and it has been a great teacher. 

    However her conduct, her assertive devaluing of my work, dismissal of my numerous attempts to problem solve with her under the assertion that I’m trying to rip her off, the moving goalposts, and her aggressive attempts to pursue the matter even after a refund had been issued for completed work has been disrespectful beyond what was called for. 
     

    2
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    Eden
    • Administrator

    My personal feelings aside on nitpicky clients, from a technical standpoint this piece is far more complete than the previous one and the examples you have listed.  I have no idea how they can say it's "less polished".  It's really a shame they didn't like the end result, because the end result is beautiful.

    While you two are counting from the date the auction ended, I'd say the day this transaction truly started is when the balance was paid off.  Sixish months for a full illustration and a song piece is good time.

    9
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    sbneko

    Is it just me having a bit of a hard time understanding them? I don't mean this as judgement on grammar/writing/English, but I can see how hard this would be to fix if it's difficult to understand what the person is saying/asking for. (Some things were easy to understand, like the nose, but some of it I wasn't sure what they were asking for)

    It's also sad to read, to me it sounded like you were more then happy to change things and fix it, but they're upset that they decided to accept it as is while they weren't happy, then changed their mind but was upset? I'm also confused by the overall conversations, because one minute they sound like everything is fine, maybe a couple things to change, but then 180s to them being very upset, the art not being good at all. And kinda went back and forth between that?

    I dunno, overall I'm a little confused by it. Hopefully both of you can find people to work that work well for you! 

    Edited by sbneko
    6
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    sbneko

    Oh! Also, they say they only received a sketch and then a basically finished piece. There's no caps for that, is it possible to see what progress you showed them?

    Personally I think it's ok to jump progress like that if you're willing to change things (which, to me, you seemed willing to do) but I know some clients get pretty nervous to ask for changes in that case. If it was jumped like that, maybe seeing if you can offer more progress images would help this for the future?

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    • Popular Comment
    armaina
    • Senior Staff
    • Popular Comment

    Trixx took 4 months to fully pay the invoice, which none of you can start work on until it's fully paid and is CLEARLY stated on your auction, and complains about it taking so long. She doesn't get to complain about it taking 11 months, at most it's 7 months. I can't speak for your partner or what they went through but since you can't start the illustration until you have some idea of what the music is like, this means that, as far as I can tell by the dates, you didn't start the actual illustration until at least late December or January. That's a whole two months, or less, depending on when the actual start date was of the piece. So, why is she blaming you directly for the amount of time she's been waiting, when it was made clear your commission was based on the music you received, which would have to be started first. You've done a fully rendered piece exceptionally quickly, (especially considering you did the background twice, the second time more involved than the first)

    The other thing that gets me is her acting like you should some how know exactly what she wants just because she said Kingdom, Battfield and City, these three things are entirely different visual elements!! You were clearly willing to work with any errors you made to Trixx specification, but when she couldn't figure out what the problem was she chose to demean your quality instead. Trixx is also an artist herself, she should know well enough the value of providing visual reference (she even admitted her lack of providing one was on her) yet as far as I can see, made no effort to provide you any reference to make the changes you offered to make. You didn't demean how Trixx felt about the piece in any way, but she wants to walk away feeling like you slighted her. The only thing I can figure is because your turn around was so quick compared to the music she's gotten it in her head that you 'rushed', and it's warping her perception of the art in question.

    I hope, if nothing else, Trixx walks away from this learning how important it is to provide visual references for the thing you want especially if it's something that's that important to you. And for what it's worth, I can tell from how you handled this you're the kind of artist that is easy to work with if anything needs to be fixed or changed.

    19
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    paintedbees
    On 2/15/2020 at 10:35 AM, sbneko said:

    Oh! Also, they say they only received a sketch and then a basically finished piece. There's no caps for that, is it possible to see what progress you showed them?

    Personally I think it's ok to jump progress like that if you're willing to change things (which, to me, you seemed willing to do) but I know some clients get pretty nervous to ask for changes in that case. If it was jumped like that, maybe seeing if you can offer more progress images would help this for the future?

    (Ooh, I hope this is the right feature to use for replying to someone..!)
    I did provide two additional WIPs which are shown in the screencaps as thumbnails,

    This was the first version following the sketch--which I sent as a "general idea of the lighting, value, and mood I am running with", I specified that both the character and background in this WIP were incomplete/unfinalized (conversation that is shown in the screencap containing the thumbnail of this WIP):

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/cic8bx73ut8jbk0/trixxwip1.png?dl=0

     

    This second WIP was to show her the completed character. At which point, she requested that I tone down the lighting coming from the crystal and when I asked if dimming it down to pink the the background shapes vaguely visible behind it would be acceptable and she gave me to go ahead for it:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ep3e3rj6abfv74u/trixx_wip2.png?dl=0

    I then restructured the background to better suit the request and sent her the completed version with her requested changes based on what we discussed.

     

    I am nervous to comment with my own opinion on her behavior, I don't think anyone is ever intentionally mean for the sake of it, but I agree that she was very difficult to understand at times and that she did, perhaps, unload some unrelated/outside frustration and anger onto me unjustly. 
    At the time, I didn't want to confront her about her behavior directly, I don't think she would have responded well to my advice or criticisms on conduct, and I personally am not confident in my ability to address those things effectively. The most I could do with confidence was decide that we would not be working together in the future. Hopefully, these screencaps and discussion will help equip anyone who may work with her in the future with a better understanding of what to expect--so that  they might be able to navigate the situation a little better than I had and enjoy a fulfilling transaction that leaves everyone feeling happy : >

    Edited by paintedbees
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    Bourbon

    Man what a horrible situation all around. They're so disrespectful of your art and I would have charged them extra for all the changes. The fact you went in and redid the background to fit the image is so above and beyond. 

    The flipflopping also sounds like they were showing it to a friend for an opinion, but unfortunately friends tend to not give honest opinions on situations like this and were likely reinforcing their opinion that it was 'rushed'. It's such a shame because it's a REALLY beautiful piece and their behavior towards you was uncalled for.

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    paintedbees

    UPDATE:
    Trixx has filed a dispute/chargeback for the TOTAL sum of the commission including the $200 USD I had already reimbursed her.
    The invoice was sent via the musician's paypal and therefore the dispute is solely hitting his account.

    740196be557a221d630e3348ae36987855678349.png (540×318)

    I am at a loss for words. We've never dealt with a charge back dispute before. If anyone has any advice, we'd love to hear it.
    I've advised the musician to send the completed work as well as proof of all verbal agreements, etc. I'm not sure what else can be done.

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    Eden
    • Administrator
    2 hours ago, paintedbees said:

    UPDATE:
    Trixx has filed a dispute/chargeback for the TOTAL sum of the commission including the $200 USD I had already reimbursed her.
    The invoice was sent via the musician's paypal and therefore the dispute is solely hitting his account.

    740196be557a221d630e3348ae36987855678349.png (540×318)

    I am at a loss for words. We've never dealt with a charge back dispute before. If anyone has any advice, we'd love to hear it.
    I've advised the musician to send the completed work as well as proof of all verbal agreements, etc. I'm not sure what else can be done.

    Don't use their automated system. Call them immediately and speak to a person. 

    4
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    paintedbees

    Thank you so much, I've forwarded the suggestion to him. He is sleeping now and had already sent a counter dispute, so I really hope he can hop onto the phone swiftly and get this whole thing sorted proper.

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    Ambiance

    I don't even know what to say, the fact that they demanded a refund, they've even posted the pic on fa. I just don't feel right that you refunded them considering the amount of time and effort you poured into your art, not to mention the music track, and they post it on fa? and issue a charge back?  If i was involved i would definitely report them, but i'm merely a bystander

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    Xaila
    • Administrator

    From the time of them filing the chargeback to whatever the results maybe; they don't have reposting rights to the image so its "theft" especially since they're attempting to profit off this.

    I strongly suggest you report the FA report so it can be taken down.

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    • Senior Staff
    armaina
    • Senior Staff

    She posted the image to her FA account, after she filed the charge-back, and has the audacity to claim that she paid for it.

    This is no longer a caution, this is now a beware.

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    RTKobold

    And the comments from her on that said picture is not helping her at all. considering she thinks it's ok to do a charge back after all this especially with the excuses from her it's just pathetic really.

    I'm really sorry that you and your partner got treated like this all that hard work for this customer ends up completely wasted like this. 

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    SirMeo

    Seeing how the artist behaved in your screenshots and their replies on their FA upload, I would personally just fully refund them (if at all possible) and resell the slot, even using the already made background. And get FA take down the commissioner posted picture, of course.

    While I guess they might've over-hyped themselves during the wait time (which they're partially responsible for themselves!), their behavior is being absolutely horrendous. I understand wanting what you paid for, especially when you pay a lot, but for the life of me can't really understand what the commissioner actually wanted the end piece to look like, and I don't think the commissioner does either. You asked for speciifcs and got nothing. Their responses and comments read extremely passive-aggressive, and after reading the submission comment on FA I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. Add in charge-back they initiated after being told they would be refunded anyway, and this person becomes someone I absolutely would never do business with.

    I hope you can get a reasonable resolution to this all.

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    Caero

    Hi there, I am the musician in question here. I go by Caero/Eluti. I'd like to add my side of the conflict. 

     

    I'd like to first start off by posting the entirety the DM's between me and Trixx over Discord. (I'll help put this into context later on)1189846990_ScreenShot2020-03-05at3_24_05PM.thumb.png.d74f023ab77d7a11872f6ec2234cc946.png701374366_ScreenShot2020-03-05at3_26_34PM.thumb.png.13cc0a34e8cedb07d9b58f48a20a217a.png

    Please note that the date when I said I would follow through with a refund was February 10th, 2020.

     

    On December 21, 2020, I presented Trixx with my first draft. Trixx immediately stated her opinion of it and I proceeded to ask for musical references so I could better craft a theme to her liking. Following the references, we've discussed that there may have been a misunderstanding as to the genre of music I compose. I compose orchestrally, which is also apparent in the references I linked in the auction. The references she gave me were more keen to J-Pop and J-EDM, which are outside of my musical ability. As shown in the images below, I was able to help Trixx understand what she was being promised and we managed to work it out. 

    you can listen to the draft here https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb6l7mc78cih6hz/Trixx%20Draft%201.mp3?dl=0

    1015429189_TrixxFirstDraft.thumb.png.050bbcac7a297310e82760e87e0ae72e.png

    96880641_TrixxFirstDraft2.thumb.png.266b8faaad660c1ef9c969661ee0d804.png1455190908_TrixxFirstDraft3.thumb.png.fcdc1236a4567a37cbf7f8a753ebe2ca.png

     

    From here, I grew weary of my own ability to come up with a theme that would fit trixx's interests for her character. This and several other irl factors contributed to me going silent for another shorter period of time up until Bee's talked to me. 

     

    From there, I decided to completely scrap the original theme I had in mind for a new one with an entirely new style. I then messaged Trixx here1036921140_ScreenShot2020-03-05at3_45_09PM.thumb.png.032a8082cc29d6e2f831b5004185c1c0.png

    and then in the group chat

    1043290350_TrixxSecondDraft.thumb.png.15659e17b55036abd991a6211adaa7e1.png

    You can listen to my second draft here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/u62364iuycwrck6/Trixx%20Draft%202.mp3?dl=0

    Seeing Trixx a lot happier with this draft brought my motivation up and I was ready to complete my end of the bargain, though unfortunately on that same day is when Trixx and Bee's had their conflict. I woke up in the middle of this and remained silent in the group chat as I didn't want to engage and possibly further any active conflict during this time.

    Following this, Bee's had decided to cease anymore work and generously refund her $200. I remained silent over the next few days so I could think on the situation and see how I felt about continuing forward. I then decided that it would be in my best interest to cease anymore work on my end as well. in any normal situation, in consideration with the amount of work I had already done (including redrafting an entirely different theme), I would have refunded only a partial amount back, but with how long I waited on my end and my own admittance to that fact, I didn't felt the right thing to do would be to refund the whole amount without argument. 211902932_ScreenShot2020-03-05at3_59_02PM.thumb.png.1653ec054f597042c95d6b47eabf909f.png 

    Once again, notice the date that Trixx acknowledged my decision.

    From here, Trixx and I ceased contact. She sent me an invoice as I requested.

    image.png.403af867f1bf50281adbd9415ccca24e.png

    I hoped that this would be the end of this situation and that I'd pay her back over time, but it seems that alongside sending me this invoice, she simultaneously filed a claim against me with her personal bank. I wasn't made aware of this claim until March 4, 2020 when the claim was posted and a notification was sent to me. I then went to my Paypal and saw this.

    1035290457_negativebalance.png.4419f5f091472c27a5f27615f283ef7a.png

    The date this claim was filed was on the exact same day Trixx acknowledged my decision. It was the same day she sent me that invoice. I then went on to send my response

    image.png.d669c5bb39fb60b7fe6e5210a7a0a592.png

     

    This is currently where I am at with this situation. I've called Paypal and they told me that this claim was made directly through Trixx's bank account. This is a matter of Paypal and me Vs. Trixx's bank and her. Nothing can move forward until her bank has taken a look at the response I gave. 

    image.png.2400d97a7df73c170b7e9977957e37e6.png

    I'm hoping all of this can be resolved soon. Thank you.

    Edited by Celestina
    edited out irl names and email addresses
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    • Administrator
    Eden
    • Administrator

    Mod comment:  Given the information provided by both Trixx and Caero align, we've decided to keep this as an open beware.  For both clients and artists collaborations are considered one entity.  Due to the inability to do a partial chargeback, the difference between $530 and $480 is owed to Caero for the matter of the chargebacks to be resolved.

    All other circumstances surrounding the chargebacks we leave others to create their own opinions on the matter.

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    paintedbees

    (popping in to apologize for my misunderstanding on the nature of chargebacks. I've never issued one before so I did not know that there was no option to request a partial. I'm holding my breath a little more readily with this knowledge, hoping for a solution that is as reasonable as the situation can provide.)

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    Caero

    Update on my end:

    Another Claim was filed on 03/15/2020 for an additional $200 on my side of the commission. This has put my Paypal at a negative balance of -$495.58 (which is $15 over the amount I told them I would refund them). As of this point, Paypal has not gotten back to me regarding wither claim. Trixx's original invoice for my refund of $480 still remains open. 684177605_ScreenShot2020-03-20at6_58_19PM.png.e1efa781444acf0d4d6d173e5504340d.png

    1765852091_ScreenShot2020-03-20at6_59_07PM.png.5b24bc65c8a77f3c7a204c4bc2ac6a8c.png

    581524702_ScreenShot2020-03-20at7_05_21PM.thumb.png.4b0a57e6126eb9129534bf1e03ac497c.png

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