Using work after "beware" experience.

[datfiller]

Do you comfortable using the work of an artist who experiences qualifies as a beware or even not but just was rude, late, noncaring, inconsiderate, etc? Or does not wasting your money matter more than you? Would you feel okay crediting and using work from someone who you feel was "shady"?

[Bornes]

It depends on the experience.
Sometimes I still use it.
Sometimes I will not post it publicly in galleries or anything but still might use it privately.
Sometimes I just have such a bad experience, looking at it only brings back the bad memories so I sell it off, give it away, or don't use it.
 

[datfiller]

19 minutes ago, Bornes said:

It depends on the experience.
Sometimes I still use it.
Sometimes I will not post it publicly in galleries or anything but still might use it privately.
Sometimes I just have such a bad experience, looking at it only brings back the bad memories so I sell it off, give it away, or don't use it.
 

I wouldn't want to use something that gave me such a bad experience but I don't know if its considered normal or overthinking it.  If you use it publicly and someone asks "wow thats amazing, who made that?" would you say that artist but i dont recommend him/her. And then if they ask if they are so bad, why are you still using their stuff? This scenario didn't happen but it just makes me think should i really use stuff from someone who provided a bad experience and didnt even care?

 

Like if a celebrity was caught in some immoral or illegal scandal, people would feel like not supporting them by using their stuff. I guess most bewares wouldn't fall in the category of illegal but is supporting their work okay just because they arent the lowest of the low?

[Bornes]

11 hours ago, datfiller said:

If you use it publicly and someone asks "wow thats amazing, who made that?" would you say that artist but i dont recommend him/her.

Yes, and I have done this before. Probably multiple times.

11 hours ago, datfiller said:

And then if they ask if they are so bad, why are you still using their stuff?

This has never happened to me, but my answer would be "Because I paid for it."

I've only had one instance where I had to get rid of the item because of the commission process, and it was for a fursuit head that had other problems. And even then, I tried to force myself to like it (and thus use it for a lot of things in the process) for over a year.

Whether or not you choose to use something an artist you don't like/didn't work well with made is a personal decision, and everyone's answer is going to be different. If you're uncomfortable using the art/thing, then don't use it. But just because I had a crappy encounter doesn't mean I'm not going to try and get my money's worth out of the thing anyway.

EDIT:
My only stipulation would be if I got a 100% refund. In that case, I may not use the thing out of respect because I didn't have to pay for anything. I've never been 100% refunded for a commission gone awry though. I've been partially refunded, and I have used the art I got partially refunded for, but in that case I don't consider the commission process bad. I feel like our issue was resolved and it was handled amicably. I probably wouldn't say anything about my thoughts on the artist if someone asked me to get a commission from them.
(But that is also moot because that artist doesn't take commissions anymore anyway).

Edited March 28, 2021 by Bornes
added refund addendum

[Bornes]

Sorry for double post but this makes more sense as a separate post:

The absolute worst dealings with artists are usually the cases where the artist just never delivers anything at all. In that case, you can't use something that doesn't exist. I've had quite a few of those, but they were either for digital goods or under 30 bucks. I just quietly file their name in my head to never do business with them again, but I've never actually written an official beware about them.

10+ years ago I commissioned some (human) art and paid up front in full. They delivered WIPs with WIP watermarks on them and then ghosted me. I am good with photoshop so removed the watermarks and use the art anyway. I know a lot of people will look down on me for doing that. I don't care. And I wouldn't fault anyone else for doing the same thing.
I save all my WIPs because artists delivering WIPs then never the full art has happened to me multiple times.
I don't go out of my way to ask an artist for WIPs but I 100% save all of them and will use the WIPs if I like them. Nobody has ever asked me to stop using them, but then again I don't parade them around every where I am online, either.

I primarily commission human stuff and don't hang out in social circles with the same artists I commission. I imagine the climate would be a little different if you're in regular contact with artists you buy from.

I don't consider artists my friends. They are a contractor I pay to get a good from, and that's where our relationship ends. If a friendship happens, it is entirely outside of the business transactions. I know the furry community general doesn't view it like that, and that's part of the culture of furries I don't like and don't engage with myself.

I have original characters, and I like them because I made them, and I like the art of them because they're a "physical" manifestation of the thing I've pictured in my head and spent time creating. But they aren't PART OF ME, at least not like how I imagine having a fursona is, so the entire art commission process, for me at least, is not as personal.

And it's 100% okay if it IS personal for you. People have different expectations and tastes, and no one is going to judge you for not using an art if you can't deal with the negative memories associated with it. But in the same vein, I'd hope that nobody judges me for using something I paid for.

Sorry this turned into a bit of a vent. I hope this makes sense.

[datfiller]

53 minutes ago, Bornes said:

Sorry for double post but this makes more sense as a separate post:

The absolute worst dealings with artists are usually the cases where the artist just never delivers anything at all. In that case, you can't use something that doesn't exist. I've had quite a few of those, but they were either for digital goods or under 30 bucks. I just quietly file their name in my head to never do business with them again, but I've never actually written an official beware about them.

10+ years ago I commissioned some (human) art and paid up front in full. They delivered WIPs with WIP watermarks on them and then ghosted me. I am good with photoshop so removed the watermarks and use the art anyway. I know a lot of people will look down on me for doing that. I don't care. And I wouldn't fault anyone else for doing the same thing.
I save all my WIPs because artists delivering WIPs then never the full art has happened to me multiple times.
I don't go out of my way to ask an artist for WIPs but I 100% save all of them and will use the WIPs if I like them. Nobody has ever asked me to stop using them, but then again I don't parade them around every where I am online, either.

I primarily commission human stuff and don't hang out in social circles with the same artists I commission. I imagine the climate would be a little different if you're in regular contact with artists you buy from.

I don't consider artists my friends. They are a contractor I pay to get a good from, and that's where our relationship ends. If a friendship happens, it is entirely outside of the business transactions. I know the furry community general doesn't view it like that, and that's part of the culture of furries I don't like and don't engage with myself.

I have original characters, and I like them because I made them, and I like the art of them because they're a "physical" manifestation of the thing I've pictured in my head and spent time creating. But they aren't PART OF ME, at least not like how I imagine having a fursona is, so the entire art commission process, for me at least, is not as personal.

And it's 100% okay if it IS personal for you. People have different expectations and tastes, and no one is going to judge you for not using an art if you can't deal with the negative memories associated with it. But in the same vein, I'd hope that nobody judges me for using something I paid for.

Sorry this turned into a bit of a vent. I hope this makes sense.

No thank you so much for your insight and thoughts. I think just the fact that this site exists shows that there are experiences like these exist.

 

At the end of the day, I just feel like its weird how some people have a lack of empathy maybe. Like for example, I don't judge you for removing the watermark and using it but I feel like I couldn't do that because artists dont like that. I'm trying not to do something that they don't like because I care about having good etiquette. But does that matter when they don't choose to do the same? What about having good to myself who worked hard to get the money to give them only for them to "spit in my face".

 

An angle I never thought of is that the artist isn't necessarily my friend. I can be friends with them but opening a commission with them doesnt mean that we are. There are alot of interesting points you make throughout your messages that make sense and is making me reconsider how I've been approaching these things. Everyone will have different opinions but its nice to see someone talk out their reasons on why they think the way they think.

 

Maybe again all of this is minor. I just find it weird that people can do things late, change details of a commission without consulting the commissioner, add watermarks, not deliver the art at all. Like how do you even like "live with yourself" knowing the kind of person you are. I know this definitely doesn't extend to just artists and all humans in general. But its like thinking back at all the commissions I've gotten, it seems just that while most have good intentions, alot just sorta just do it for the money and thats it. Makes sense but again its just like if I was late with something as a programmer, I would absolutely feel bad, try to console with the commissioner, etc. See what ways I can make up for mistakes. Not 100% of the people again have bad intentions but enough don't care to the point that its just irritating and I feel even using their stuff feels work.

[Bornes]

 

1 hour ago, datfiller said:

I just find it weird that people can do things late, change details of a commission without consulting the commissioner, add watermarks, not deliver the art at all. Like how do you even like "live with yourself" knowing the kind of person you are. I know this definitely doesn't extend to just artists and all humans in general. But its like thinking back at all the commissions I've gotten, it seems just that while most have good intentions, alot just sorta just do it for the money and thats it.

I think even the "bad artists" don't intend to be bad.
I can be sympathetic while still holding them accountable.

There is a much wider problem among the general art community that if you're good at art, you should try to make money from it. Because "Why not" right? But the problem is, as soon as you start taking money for your art, you are a business. And businesses have certain rules they need to follow. Like having the liquidity to facilitate refunds or paying for necessary materials without leveraging them against future projects.

But in the art community, almost nobody talks about the business aspect of it. A lot of artists have no idea what they're getting into when they start taking commissions. It's just a side gig. No reason to be all serious about it. Right? But then one single bad thing happening can turn into a snowball effect that results in many more commissioners getting screwed over.

Let's take a rather common beware example. Customer orders something and pays the artist up front. Something out of control happens to the artist and they can't deliver the art. The artist doesn't have the funds to refund the customer. The customer eventually gets fed up and forces a refund to happen. The artist has a wait list, and the refund that the first customer just forced now takes away funds they were going to use for refunds for other people. So on and so forth, the debt grows and the artist tries to take new commissions to pay for the old refunds, but there's a huge chance they are (logistically) NEVER going to catch up.

Don't get me wrong. There are bad faith artists out there. But by and large, the thing that tips the iceberg is something of no fault to the artist. Should the artist have been able to issue the refund? YES, OF COURSE, as a BUSINESS, you should never be spending funds you haven't accounted for yet. [i]But 99% of these artists don't treat it as a business.[/i] Or they simply never really knew what they were getting into. There is some personal accountability in this, yes. But it is also a much wider problem among how the community as a whole treats this. It's a multi-faceted problem that the community in general can be pretty hypocritical about.

I can realize this and have this sympathy. Well, yeah, it's a sucky situation. I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm not going to broadcast to everyone that you're a crappy person, but unfortunately I paid you for a product. It was not a donation. So I will use my product if it was provided to me. I'm sorry for your business loss.

I can have no faith in an artist's business without disparaging the artist as a person. Maybe I love the art they made. Maybe other people are willing to take the risk to get a piece of art from that same person because they love the art too... Heck, that happens all the time already- look at some of the popular artists with so many bewares and STILL have huge queues because people like that artist's art that much.

Another piece of the artist community puzzle/problem is that sometimes customers treat artists as businesses and other times they don't. Of course, this all comes down to convenience. I paid for a product. I want the product. The artist didn't deliver. The artist is a business! Give me a refund! Convenient for me to treat them like a business. Inconvenient for the artist who is a person and who had no control over the fact they had to go to the hospital or something.
But those same people don't want to pay business prices for art. A single illustration should not cost under $30. That is not a business price. That is a hobbyist not knowing anything about business price. But several people in the community are unwilling to pay prices higher than that, so how convenient it is that the artist isn't really a business in this case. Of course I'm not absolved from this either. I have already provided examples where I've been a hypocrite too. But in my defense, I'd like to think I'm different now, as like I said, that was 10+ years ago. I've largely stopped commissioning art for under 30 bucks. (and really 30 bucks is an arbitrary number. There is no convenient solid number price to point to for this situation. 30 is just my personal example of it.)

Anyway, I don't want to write a book here, as this is a huge issue we as a whole kind of need to figure out eventually, and is separate from your thread's original question.

But my point is, you can have sympathy for a person while still retaining your rights as a consumer.

[datfiller]

30 minutes ago, Bornes said:

 

I think even the "bad artists" don't intend to be bad.
I can be sympathetic while still holding them accountable.

There is a much wider problem among the general art community that if you're good at art, you should try to make money from it. Because "Why not" right? But the problem is, as soon as you start taking money for your art, you are a business. And businesses have certain rules they need to follow. Like having the liquidity to facilitate refunds or paying for necessary materials without leveraging them against future projects.

But in the art community, almost nobody talks about the business aspect of it. A lot of artists have no idea what they're getting into when they start taking commissions. It's just a side gig. No reason to be all serious about it. Right? But then one single bad thing happening can turn into a snowball effect that results in many more commissioners getting screwed over.

Let's take a rather common beware example. Customer orders something and pays the artist up front. Something out of control happens to the artist and they can't deliver the art. The artist doesn't have the funds to refund the customer. The customer eventually gets fed up and forces a refund to happen. The artist has a wait list, and the refund that the first customer just forced now takes away funds they were going to use for refunds for other people. So on and so forth, the debt grows and the artist tries to take new commissions to pay for the old refunds, but there's a huge chance they are (logistically) NEVER going to catch up.

Don't get me wrong. There are bad faith artists out there. But by and large, the thing that tips the iceberg is something of no fault to the artist. Should the artist have been able to issue the refund? YES, OF COURSE, as a BUSINESS, you should never be spending funds you haven't accounted for yet. [i]But 99% of these artists don't treat it as a business.[/i] Or they simply never really knew what they were getting into. There is some personal accountability in this, yes. But it is also a much wider problem among how the community as a whole treats this. It's a multi-faceted problem that the community in general can be pretty hypocritical about.

I can realize this and have this sympathy. Well, yeah, it's a sucky situation. I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm not going to broadcast to everyone that you're a crappy person, but unfortunately I paid you for a product. It was not a donation. So I will use my product if it was provided to me. I'm sorry for your business loss.

I can have no faith in an artist's business without disparaging the artist as a person. Maybe I love the art they made. Maybe other people are willing to take the risk to get a piece of art from that same person because they love the art too... Heck, that happens all the time already- look at some of the popular artists with so many bewares and STILL have huge queues because people like that artist's art that much.

Another piece of the artist community puzzle/problem is that sometimes customers treat artists as businesses and other times they don't. Of course, this all comes down to convenience. I paid for a product. I want the product. The artist didn't deliver. The artist is a business! Give me a refund! Convenient for me to treat them like a business. Inconvenient for the artist who is a person and who had no control over the fact they had to go to the hospital or something.
But those same people don't want to pay business prices for art. A single illustration should not cost under $30. That is not a business price. That is a hobbyist not knowing anything about business price. But several people in the community are unwilling to pay prices higher than that, so how convenient it is that the artist isn't really a business in this case. Of course I'm not absolved from this either. I have already provided examples where I've been a hypocrite too. But in my defense, I'd like to think I'm different now, as like I said, that was 10+ years ago. I've largely stopped commissioning art for under 30 bucks. (and really 30 bucks is an arbitrary number. There is no convenient solid number price to point to for this situation. 30 is just my personal example of it.)

Anyway, I don't want to write a book here, as this is a huge issue we as a whole kind of need to figure out eventually, and is separate from your thread's original question.

But my point is, you can have sympathy for a person while still retaining your rights as a consumer.

Thank you so much for your post. Sorry for making you ramble on if you didnt intend.

 

I do get that most bad artists arent trying to be bad. I think it just irks me that if some don't care if they are. Like even with some of the posts here, some artists don't care using bad practices because its not "their problem".

Your business point does make sense. I feel thats very important in explaining some problems. But overall, I can't speak for others but for myself I do sympathize and understand problems can rise and am flexible in that regard. It always just goes back to the main point that you should at least care to correct a mistake and not brush it off as no big deal. Its something maybe how I was raised or something that I cant fathom how people just don't care sometimes.

The point about big artists still getting commissions despite bewares is interesting. If there was an easy list or a website that had reviews, maybe its easier to weed out things but alot of the times I ask on twitter or deviantart and don' really look into their history. I know websites exist and maybe I should consider them than Twitter.  I don't know if randomly messaging people who commissioned them before about their experience if its a good idea but yeah.

I only started commissioning people 3 years ago but it sucks that the problem has been apparent for your saying over 10+ years and still happens. I guess maybe there have been attempts to help but unsure as to how much progress overall has been made.

 

I definitely always liked trying to try new people but maybe also need to shorten my acceptable artist list to people from the past.

 

Thanks again for your message. Its a really interesting topic to read from another persons perspective. You wrote alot. I would definitely read your book haha. I dont really get angry at all in general. But I would say in true anger, over half the times I've been severely angry has been commission work and people not caring. Its just mind-boggling that even though some people may not think of it as a business that you would just do "bewareable" things. I guess I wouldn't say its common sense but its like you know it would annoy you if I did it to you so how don't you understand? Had people try to change the price after paying full price before they were finished, had a deadline and miss it by two months. Obviously context matters so you can't really trust my word here without evidence but its just like I don't understand how people think thats just okay.

 

You dont have to keep replying if you felt like you exhausted the topic but I do appreciate your time. I liked your responses. Helped me calm down a bit.

 

[VosurAekira]

If needed, would it be an idea to have an updated reference (if ref-sheet of a character) so that you can say that the artwork was made by someone you trust? I'm having to go through something like that with artists that I've had some sour experiences with. The artists were good, and the artwork provides the details, but I feel the art-style would make me think of the bad moments too much, but that is just me and my two-cents-worth.

[baja]

Bornes has covered it succinctly, but if I have a less than stellar experience with an artist, I make a point to not use the art.

A lot of the time I will just let the work sit on my HDD with the name of the individual but I won't give any official posting of the work attention just to put it behind me.

If someone asks me who did the work, and I have happened to had it uploaded prior to any sort of fallout or new info, I'm always the sort to give proper credit to the person who did the piece, but you can always say you don't recommend working with them. If its something that bothers you, you can always remove your own uploads from public view for piece of mind.

And heck, if you even want to go to this extent, you can ask an artist to leave your name off an upload if they're going to display what they made.

Though the latter would vary on an individual circumstances, etc etc. 

tl;dr, A piece can be beautiful, but carry bad vibes. I send those bad vibes away and look to greener pastures.

[datfiller]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:38 PM, rikki said:

Bornes has covered it succinctly, but if I have a less than stellar experience with an artist, I make a point to not use the art.

A lot of the time I will just let the work sit on my HDD with the name of the individual but I won't give any official posting of the work attention just to put it behind me.

If someone asks me who did the work, and I have happened to had it uploaded prior to any sort of fallout or new info, I'm always the sort to give proper credit to the person who did the piece, but you can always say you don't recommend working with them. If its something that bothers you, you can always remove your own uploads from public view for piece of mind.

And heck, if you even want to go to this extent, you can ask an artist to leave your name off an upload if they're going to display what they made.

Though the latter would vary on an individual circumstances, etc etc. 

tl;dr, A piece can be beautiful, but carry bad vibes. I send those bad vibes away and look to greener pastures.

Thanks for the response. My personality is that I would say I'm very polite but not necessarily nice. I just don't like coming off as rude and I feel personally responsible whenever I make a mistake. I think like if I was late with a payment to an artist I would feel bad and "try to make up for it". Where as with alot of these bad experiences, I feel like alot of these artists "maybe" care but not enough to actually try to make up for it. I think thats where the disconnect is with me. Not that they have to but its so surprising alot of them do.

 

I've felt really good about commissions ever since Bornes's post and its mostly because the main point I took away from him is that artists aren't really my friend. They are just people I pay to get a service from. I tried to extend my hand alot to be a friend but I assume (nothing wrong with this I guess) most of them are just focused on getting their tasks done for payment. I've had good experiences but the bad experiences definitely give me more of this vibe. I've been better now in just looking at people differently and having more realistic expectations. Its still hard because you dont know how the experience will go before paying but I'm not as blind faith honoring them as I used to.

 

I probably still wont use the more stronger bad experiences but I don't think I'm going out of my way to praise people who probably don't care as much anymore.

[Ikayuro]

It's definitely a case by case basis, for me. In the case of my most recent issue, wherein an adoptable I purchased was traced, I'm definitely looking to get the character redesigned completely and will be abandoning the art, as it wasn't original in the first place.

Others though, if I paid for it and it doesn't hurt me to look at, or upset me, then I'll keep it up on their profile, so long as it's still relevant.