Is it bad practice to ask for the PSD file for a finished art piece?

[washup]

I have been wanting to commision an artist to draw some artwork for me to print onto a pillowcase (a dakimakura image) , however I am a perfectionist. I try to have multiple clear references and write out exactly what I am looking for but I don't expect an artist to exactly get it right and that's why I would prefer to have the PSD file after completion so I can use my own skills to change aspects they may have not included or got wrong. Personally, I feel like this is a much better solution than asking an artist after completion to change the image, but for some reason a lot of artists are wary of giving out the PSD file, as stated in their terms of service or when asking them in the beginning. One artist said they would sell me the file for 100% of the images price but at 50% resolution, I politely told them I wasn't interested. What's the point, is it a countermeasure agaisnt art theft? Not trying to be rude, genuinely curious 

[Eden]

Quote

What's the point, is it a countermeasure agaisnt art theft?

That's precisely it.  Giving away the working file presumably at working resolution means that you'll have a much easier time making prints ect.  If a client approached me asking for a full res working file on commission I'd be wary this individual is trying to angle for what is supposed to be a work-for-hire at commission prices.  Meaning at the end of the transaction a work-for-hire client gets full copyright transfer, commercial rights, and the working files so they can do whatever they'd like with the end result.  The only thing I'd keep as per our contract is display rights for my commercial portfolio.  The difference between a work-for-hire and a commission is that work-for-hire projects are 3 - 5x the cost of a normal commission.

Not only are you going to have a hard time finding individuals who are willing to give away their working files, you're also going to find it hard to convince folks to let you make edits to their work after the fact.  That would mean that if you do a poor job editing, then it can be their reputation on the line.  It's just not something that's very common in this fandom.

[washup]

20 minutes ago, Celestina said:

That's precisely it.  Giving away the working file presumably at working resolution means that you'll have a much easier time making prints ect.  If a client approached me asking for a full res working file on commission I'd be wary this individual is trying to angle for what is supposed to be a work-for-hire at commission prices.  Meaning at the end of the transaction a work-for-hire client gets full copyright transfer, commercial rights, and the working files so they can do whatever they'd like with the end result.  The only thing I'd keep as per our contract is display rights for my commercial portfolio.  The difference between a work-for-hire and a commission is that work-for-hire projects are 3 - 5x the cost of a normal commission.

Not only are you going to have a hard time finding individuals who are willing to give away their working files, you're also going to find it hard to convince folks to let you make edits to their work after the fact.  That would mean that if you do a poor job editing, then it can be their reputation on the line.  It's just not something that's very common in this fandom.

I understand, when you put it like that it does make sense why it's frowned upon

Honestly I wouldn't intend on sharing the piece after editing online as I'd be treating it as personal and didn't even intend on posting pics of the pillow cover when printed but I can also empathise with feeling miffed if a client edited a commison I made them after completion. It would be less work for the artist but if the client chose to share it, which the artist has no control over, their reputation as an artist to others and their own faith in their capabilities would go down. I was only looking at it from the client POV... That's definitely given me a new perspective on it, thank you

[theodor]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:23 AM, washup said:

so I can use my own skills to change aspects they may have not included or got wrong.

I would immediately refuse to work with you for this alone. Bewares have been posted for people editing artists work in the past. (I remember one specifically about a client editing the black on their character to be darker)

I dont give out ,psd's specifically because I dont work with many layers; I often have two. But also, as Celestina said, bad editing comes back on to the artist, which is why I have it a rule that anyone who colors my work must state they did the coloring.

[washup]

7 hours ago, theodor said:

I would immediately refuse to work with you for this alone. Bewares have been posted for people editing artists work in the past. (I remember one specifically about a client editing the black on their character to be darker)

I dont give out ,psd's specifically because I dont work with many layers; I often have two. But also, as Celestina said, bad editing comes back on to the artist, which is why I have it a rule that anyone who colors my work must state they did the coloring.

I mean speaking purely objectively paying an artist for their service is just that, a service. I get the personal side of it and how it's offensive to the original artist but if they did make a mistake what exactly is the harm in changing it if only you are going to see the changed version? Im not trying to be insensitive here but when a fursuit maker makes a mistake you don't see people telling the client not to fix that mistake themself as it would be offensive to the orginal maker 

[LorelTheBison]

2 minutes ago, washup said:

I mean speaking purely objectively paying an artist for their service is just that, a service. I get the personal side of it and how it's offensive to the original artist but if they did make a mistake what exactly is the harm in changing it if only you are going to see the changed version? Im not trying to be insensitive here but when a fursuit maker makes a mistake you don't see people telling the client not to fix that mistake themself as it would be offensive to the orginal maker 

I don't think that you can compare a fursuit to a piece of artwork, really. That's just two different pairs of shoes. A fursuit will at some point need to be edited, since it will get worn.

Now what makes no sense to me is: Why would you want to make changes to the picture if only you see them? Of course you will want to share it then, wouldn't you? Otherwise you could just leave it as it is.

So to answer your lead question: Honestly, yes, it is very bad practice to edit artwork without permission. Because, really.. I haven't seen any artist who wouldn't make those changes for you if they are within reason and actually based on mistakes on the artist's side. You either ask them to make those changes or accept the art with the mistakes. And you should always make sure to provide good references, else you can't expect the artist to make free edits either since then that's on you.

I've gotten three references for one character in the past and had a really hard time drawing them because the markings and colourations of all three pictures weren't matching properly. That is then on the commissioner, and not on me as the artist. I would still do edits to a degree, yes, but I understand if other artists would refuse to in that moment.

[washup]

11 minutes ago, LorelTheBison said:

I don't think that you can compare a fursuit to a piece of artwork, really. That's just two different pairs of shoes. A fursuit will at some point need to be edited, since it will get worn.

Now what makes no sense to me is: Why would you want to make changes to the picture if only you see them? Of course you will want to share it then, wouldn't you? Otherwise you could just leave it as it is.

So to answer your lead question: Honestly, yes, it is very bad practice to edit artwork without permission. Because, really.. I haven't seen any artist who wouldn't make those changes for you if they are within reason and actually based on mistakes on the artist's side. You either ask them to make those changes or accept the art with the mistakes. And you should always make sure to provide good references, else you can't expect the artist to make free edits either since then that's on you.

I've gotten three references for one character in the past and had a really hard time drawing them because the markings and colourations of all three pictures weren't matching properly. That is then on the commissioner, and not on me as the artist. I would still do edits to a degree, yes, but I understand if other artists would refuse to in that moment.

Since they are both under the pretence of paying someone to create something for you I think it's a worthy comparison. I've seen people receive fursuit heads and on arrival it had with bad stitching, or wrongly shaved fur, and they would be  told they can fix the issue themselves. If an artist forgets to a clothing item or fur marking, doesn't that go under the same definition?

 

The art in question is for a personal dakimakura, so it would be printed and looked at a lot by myself. It's purely a precaution as I would hate to print it and notice something that flew under the radar. Maybe it's a bit much but It would bug me.

 

The problem is many artists in their terms of service refuse changes after a certain point. To fully respect those terms and still be satisfied, if they made a mistake, the only way would be to edit it myself. I could just accept the art I see as incorrect but isn't that kind of wrong? I paid for a service why should I just grin and take it if it can be changed and nobody is being harmed in the process? Their reputation isn't soiled as no one else would see the edit, and they would never actually know it happened.

 

Even then the original question was about the ethics of sharing PSD files, not the moral obligations of my personal reasoning for wanting it. I don't see why that is being scrutinised. 

[LorelTheBison]

4 hours ago, washup said:

Since they are both under the pretence of paying someone to create something for you I think it's a worthy comparison. I've seen people receive fursuit heads and on arrival it had with bad stitching, or wrongly shaved fur, and they would be  told they can fix the issue themselves. If an artist forgets to a clothing item or fur marking, doesn't that go under the same definition?

 

The art in question is for a personal dakimakura, so it would be printed and looked at a lot by myself. It's purely a precaution as I would hate to print it and notice something that flew under the radar. Maybe it's a bit much but It would bug me.

 

The problem is many artists in their terms of service refuse changes after a certain point. To fully respect those terms and still be satisfied, if they made a mistake, the only way would be to edit it myself. I could just accept the art I see as incorrect but isn't that kind of wrong? I paid for a service why should I just grin and take it if it can be changed and nobody is being harmed in the process? Their reputation isn't soiled as no one else would see the edit, and they would never actually know it happened.

 

Even then the original question was about the ethics of sharing PSD files, not the moral obligations of my personal reasoning for wanting it. I don't see why that is being scrutinised. 

The difference between a suit and artwork is so easy to see, really. Artwork, especially digitally made, can easily be edited by anyone. A fursuit needs expensive materials to be fixed if something's off about it, and you have to pay shipping to send it back and forth if you want the creator to fix it. So of course the creator is far more likely to let you do edits to it yourself rather than having you send it and having to buy more materials for it.

Meanwhile you can just ask the artist of the piece of art for the changes - for a fee every artist will make changes, even if they are at the point of wanting to make no more free edits (which I can understand considering that I had to hand out almost 20 WIPs for someone, working on one picture for almost a month until they finally were satisfied..).

"Fully respect those terms" by wanting to act against them? I don't think I have seen ToS before which state that the art can be edited without permission. "Only personal use" or not, if the ToS say that you are not allowed to edit the art or have that done by other artists, you are not allowed to do that. That's what ToS are for, right..? Yes, you paid for it. You paid for it agreeing to said ToS.

Why handing out the PSD isn't something people want to do has already been said. It's risky. It's an immense risk, since this gives the option for the receiver of the art to edit the whole thing, remove the watermark/signature and upload it somewhere, pretending they've done it.

[theodor]

I will do edits that are my fault free of charge, assuming it's not like you ask me over and over, and it was on the ref. I will make paid edits if you're like "Whoops, I forgot to say can you add a collar'. Almost all artists will do this. You also phrased it more along the lines that you fully expect every artist to get things wrong. (At that point it may be a time for a new ref, an example is my partners ref doesnt show his tail right, and artists always get it wrong)

A good example; Ref has collar, shorts, and 4 markings; artist draws shorts, and 3 markings; it's on them to fix, it absolutely should be fixed for free.
If you come back after and go, oh yeah I added socks and a 5th marking, and you didnt include them; Your fault and the artist can absolutely refuse to add them, or charge you.

Even fursuit artists will fix errors they make if its on them.

Digital art is 100% owned by the creator in terms of copyright; you are paying for the service, not to own the image. (Unless its set up otherwise, which is not the case with commissions most of the time)

When selling a suit, or a traditional image, you are selling the item, as well as the service. I would no longer own the suit, or the traditional piece, and you can burn it if you wanted to.

[washup]

Sorry for late response I understand why this is rude now and won't ask an artist about it when commsioning, thanks for the information guys

[Eden]

🙂  It seems like you've got a good amount of advice.  I'll go ahead and lock this for you.