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  • Beware: @crustybagelbites


    Grayvys
    • Who: @crustybagelbites
      Where: On Twitter and Tumblr
      When: 08/23/2019
      What: Commission

      Resolved
    Message added by James

    Comments that attempt to debate the ethics of the kink, or kinks in general, will not be approved.  

    I had given him money for a commission, however he made a few concerning posts that made me want to get a refund. He posted that he would refund, but when I messaged him he became hateful and refused to refund me.

     

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    • Administrator

    Goodness gracious.  Regardless of one's feelings on certain kinks (goodness knows there are plenty out there that squick me), it's not ok to keep someone's money once they request a refund.

    I'm not very familiar with Ko-fi, but if you used your cc if push comes to shove can you request a chargeback?

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    Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the law in the places where these people are located, but as far as I know they are not entitled to a refund?
    I mean, seems the artist has every intention of still delivering the commission, you can't really ask for a refund because you suddenly decide you don't like the person.
    Especially with the post about how these are emergency commissions and they have bills due. Chances are they don't even have the money anymore. I know I've had times in my life where losing $10 would have destroyed me, let alone losing it based on the sudden turnaround of another person.
    I don't really think the artist has done anything wrong here, if I'm honest

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    • Administrator
    10 minutes ago, Vibri said:

    Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the law in the places where these people are located, but as far as I know they are not entitled to a refund?
    I mean, seems the artist has every intention of still delivering the commission, you can't really ask for a refund because you suddenly decide you don't like the person.
    Especially with the post about how these are emergency commissions and they have bills due. Chances are they don't even have the money anymore. I know I've had times in my life where losing $10 would have destroyed me, let alone losing it based on the sudden turnaround of another person.
    I don't really think the artist has done anything wrong here, if I'm honest

    Legalities and moralities are two different things.  Technically non refund clauses aren't illegal.

    If a client asks for a refund you cease all work and refund for work not done.  That's good business, and no payment processor will deny a client a refund if OP chooses to go the route of a chargeback.  It doesn't matter if the artist "intends to finish" because the client has made it known they do not wish for this transaction to continue.  If the client had asked for a refund and the artist finished it anyway, then we would have put that through.  That's incredibly unprofessional.

    An artist shouldn't spend money they haven't earned.  Realistically that isn't always possible, but they aren't denying a refund based on not having the money.  They're denying the refund on something entirely not their business.

     

    Edit: Edited to add "work not done" because I realize our user base is bigger than the old Livejournal base where good business practices were often discussed in the past.

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    5 minutes ago, Celestina said:

    If a client asks for a refund you cease all work and refund.  That's good business, and no payment processor will deny a client a refund if OP chooses to go the route of a chargeback.  It doesn't matter if the artist "intends to finish" because the client has made it known they do not wish for this transaction to continue.  If the client had asked for a refund and the artist finished it anyway, then we would have put that through.  That's incredibly unprofessional.

    I'm afraid I strongly disagree. I think its more unprofessional to hire somebody to do some work for you and then fire them and demand return of payment based on your whims.
    I think thats a pretty awful thing to do, if I'm honest

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    Ko-fi is, primarily, a donation platform. It's not intended for commercial use like commissions. It's one thing to offer something in exchange for a certain donation, but "taking commissions" through it is very risky, as there is no buyer's protection because as far as Ko-fi is concerned, it was just a donation. Least, that's how it was when I read up on it a while back. Never expect something back through a Ko-fi transaction.

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    • Administrator
    20 minutes ago, Vibri said:

    I'm afraid I strongly disagree. I think its more unprofessional to hire somebody to do some work for you and then fire them and demand return of payment based on your whims.
    I think thats a pretty awful thing to do, if I'm honest

    Noted, however it's moot given the artist was offering refunds.

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    I believe you would still be able to go to paypal for the transaction as long as you are within the time period and force a chargeback. that behavior of theirs is unacceptable. If they were not comfortable drawing a kink they should not have accepted the money.

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    I'm not sure there's much you can do, considering ko-fi is for donations regardless of if offering commissions or not.

    However, despite what you're into, the professional thing to do is to give your money back. That attitude is atrocious, keep your personal feelings out of business. If they didn't like what you were into they shouldn't have taken your money to begin with. 😕

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    So I went to check a my Paypal for a recent donation I made to Kofi and found out that you can file a chargeback through Paypal. They are considered transactions (as in goods and services) by Paypal and not donations (friends and family). Paypal takes the fee as it would for transactions when money exchanged via Kofi.

    kofi-paypalscreencap.png.42e308b04db4f34545a9feb065b080a4.png

    I can't guaranteed that Paypal will side with you, but it might be the best option of getting your money back. Certainly worth a try.

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    9 hours ago, Witchess said:

    I believe you would still be able to go to paypal for the transaction as long as you are within the time period and force a chargeback. that behavior of theirs is unacceptable. If they were not comfortable drawing a kink they should not have accepted the money.

    This. I always make sure to let people know what I won't draw. If they say 'literally everything' well, then they should go through with it or simply refund in total, and don't comment on any of it.

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    their attitude is absolutely atrocious - i definitely understand their strong feelings about such a subject, and even though it's incredibly touchy it should have been handled more tactfully. if you run a business you have to be able to approach these situations professionally, even if you don't want to.
    but the link they posted on their tumblr to, if i'm reading correctly, your twitter, is also kind of concerning and doesn't make you look great in all of this either. i do get the frustration behind it, though.

    i'm curious as to why you refused to give them your paypal? i understand it's probably a personal thing to not want to give your personal email out, but they asked for it to give you the refund you asked for and you .... refused?? but still say that they're refusing to give you a refund. they probably saw it when they received payment, so i guess i don't understand why giving it to them in order to get your money back is such a big deal. i personally do not think they should have to go through the hoops of donating to your personal ko-fi, the ko-fi of someone they don't support, just to give you your money back when there is a much simpler option. it just complicates things unnecessarily and i'm pretty sure they would see it no matter what way you went about getting your money back.

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    • Administrator
    1 hour ago, rhys said:


    i'm curious as to why you refused to give them your paypal? 

    Probably because PayPal would make their legal name visible to the artist. I also peeked into the tumblr blogs and there appear to be accusations of threats? I guess OP is worried about being doxed. Not sure if Ko-fi hides the names of account holders when they make their initial payment.

    With that said a lot of folks don't know that they can upgrade to a business account to hide their personal info.

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    Payments done through Ko-Fi do not hide the names of the recipients (or the sender as well) depending on if they are a business-account holder or not. Business accounts tend to show only the business name rather than the individual's name. I would show a search I just did in my own account, but that would showing of private information. 

    If you go into your account activity, put "ko-fi" in the search function (along with the time frame the transaction took place), you should be able to see the details of the person you've sent it to (or received from if you are a recipient). In those details, you will see "Ko-Fi Donation" or "Ko-Fi Support" as part of the Purchase Details.

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    • Senior Staff

    I believe the difference here is that the individual has Ko-Fi Gold, rather than the base, free service that Ko-Fi offers!
    With Ko-Fi Gold, you're able to offer commissions via the platform in a formal manner. Its an actual commission widget for someone vs the donation doodles a lot of artists tend to offer.

    So, I believe that the client would be able to file a claim if this was the case, rather than expect to be refunded by the artist themselves.
    But it is as others have said, unless someone's upgraded to a business account, they would be outing their personal information to the person in question. Which is wholly understandable if you'd rather not disclose any of that sort of thing.

    But OP, check if you actually commissioned them via Ko-Fi Gold's official commission means, and it may help you file a claim on your end.

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    It stuns me that they rant at length about how they have a[n unenforceable] no refund policy, and how dare OP request a refund over $10 on artwork that was never even started. I just... wow.

    For me, the phrase "emergency commission" is a MAJOR red flag in the first place. I've seen entirely too many cases of artists who are either in a perpetual state of emergency, or they cut and run with the money, sometimes without meaning to do so. When folks chime in with "Don't spend the commission money until you've finished the work," it's legit the best policy, and emergency commissions generally work counter to that thought. 

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    • Administrator

    Changed Resolved to Yes

    We received an email from the artist showing proof that OP had been refunded the same day this post went live.

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